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·REPORT
OT I no IDDO O TU
1952
Conference of the
Universities of Great Britain
and Northern Ireland
coereped by
Tze Confttee of Vloeimod od Prtoorpals
od bela ta
THE WLLIAX BEVERILGE HALL
UNTVERSITY OF LONDO\ SENATE HOUSE
00
Friday and Saturday December 12th and 13th 1952

·The proceedings of the Conform of the Home
UNTpenitus will * 1947 1948 1949 und 1951
ker bety published 18 comperio rooms which
may boy olar pa one stilling and exponce
poufre (1951 Report to chulorgt past fra) from
The Storstory The Association of Umnenda of the
Bnost Common cul s Gordon Square London
W CL. The 1946 and 1950 Rsports or out of formel
For sobeds and speakers we list the end of the

·CONTENTS Minus O Compra FIRST SISSION Indry steroon, Deceber uith. Subject of Duquna Hule of Roalder und Hudent Ameatlo. Swane by Dr E. SUL Ieruchor by the Chamun, D C B Jlarm Addrws by Dr C Ashby Dimenom - h D E F Humphryn The CharmDY CR Vom Y CE Stenut ur w L Adams I W & Ans Prot J L Montroue Mchechett 21 1 Xabelon Pobor 8. D Luh Dr G R. Tudope Prulator C. M. Att DT HH LLC Prof G Constopbian Profoor R A. Morte 1. H. P Houmphrey Dr E. Aby SECOND SESSION Batarduy norum, December 5th. Swbyus D rn und Failure at the University Short' N Icery moments by the Chestnan, Protect F T I Itcher And by Sur Almander Carr Sandert ruby Pructor Sor Jamn Latinontà Die Due Chaumer Pratomor F T I Finca DE DO Trude H, Newt Professor R A. Harton Prolour S Jumes Leroth TR Canon S L Greriloche B. Spelen Mr G West Prolu] L. Moottuu To TBL Webetet DE I Baler Dy . IL Mech DI RI Still Hp Tu TRt. Hoe Lord Chockey i Kode * Alander Cut Suoden Proton Sur JLDU LAmonth - ·THIRD SESSION Setorday afternoon, December 3th Swed of Diwsdlok Vreation Employment Sy by Professor CV Nikl Introductory moments by the Court DT DU LOT Adina Procuror C u Nacing DINOM db Str Daud Lindsay her The CIDADE DW Logan Dr E. P Hodihn DI GM Harthardt C. Malen NA Kecurane Dm F Turtrother Prolomor 8 H Dave Prolamo F S Duntoo Dr HF Humpbrrt Sur Rodex Hd Mr G N Flemming Prodentor Y Llood Sir Daud Lady Kar Profesor Cyklaciones of lor 91 QI 93 93 93 5 97 97 99 09 100 Tor ·UMBER. OT CONTERENO. THE FOLLOWING ITTENDED AS UNIVERSITY DELEGATES Bnen. A F Humm, 0.B.E, LC T.D, DL VE, 20 XDS, LLD FDS FA Tree Chancer ind Prrcipal. HA Cron, A., Processor of ladumil Hotory und Dan of the Imolty of Art сгу Борт, цD CB, V.R.C.S. LRC.P Profonor af Antomy od Sub-Dan of the Txulty of Watch VONA NA LA L L Latert England Chor Women T tor GLOBE Get II., Rry trur Bn VR CDON SATT, B.C.LILL JP Chand Co al Sur D Bonna, CDE11A, LLD Chancellor \ E. GD, C.DE, D.Sc FRS Lernth Lomo Proden Pływal Chorary and Pralko-chucolar SH Prr, D.SO D.Sc., Protomar of Puyu. I VANDALET ITIBA, Ph.D., Senior Locturer in Locaboo E F GIN) So P.D., Somor Lecturer in CO LTDOETID Carr. SI LOWL WNBY CTO LLC NA HD IRCI Rio Proliner Phyno Marter of Don Ding Coletne-Chork HS KURCALDY A Lontyn Butto l'or | Industrul Recuatroon. GEDUL, XLA POD Volventy Lecturer in Irburology 2. Ehiv ILALLA Unranty Lecture in L. SRDLOON CADELL, Seto Tetor Gon the & Cut College H KIDD MA. Portant Regnery Dwhe CI C Bosing , LA DL.L., Rector of Kos Calle Vorurte upon Tyo, i Vice Chancether IL PATLETY N B.E., DLL, DS, Chorman of Coun, The Ilutun College The Roy Canon L GRAPLADI, 4, an Wukt Proin or or Dirty The Dortum College, We Ct WALL MIC.S. Lecturer u Cbrmmetry hung Colin Touch upon type Sir Home HOOLDTONTH OC, DSC, LLD, Pro-Curacelor CHORRN, HA LLD Chancellor PS DATTOO VLDSFD Promo of Chemntry DG CHUTION O.BILI DIT, SJL INIC.C AI1.Lrch Prof Hecbanaal Copen J BUIL, FLD DS, TRIC, Redur a tb Herber of Oruc Rauctio DJ Dann of Zbo Yxalty of Son R I STILL UILI, B. Cbir D.RCOG Lututy Holka Uncat Lua Stow MA J.P., Sembara Council R SLOTTON PhD., DS, FRS, ERIC, Jornton Prostor o Brochury DAN BSc. Econ, PD franc Lectum Soal Soat YG CALTIT HLA MI WII VechC., Lectott aka 10 Ingiber ·- 1 - Mario LL VITO Coun u 1 труп W PLD TALD I BL KH Chenet Secretart to the JD CUL IL VAS ofitant Court and 1 Tord. * Romance Thuology 1 in Chemrdry Seasor Lecturer Chunk and Tytor Anut 1 I to hry untents Boud. Madushar DL. HALLANT VA (unlr Alem L UROS OS 11 man Council VILATCOCO, 41 Trofeant ir ducation and Deus of the Faulty of Educatio R Start II Sc In 1), Lectuer mome LL. SMINA Part te lecturer la vental Health and Wurde of the Florence Part 2! Ruckence O for FWD DLAKE DSO, LL Wardea of St. Antony's College GEF COELVES, LA, bh! Stor T tr The Qur' Collere CE. ETT VA, Sætetary [ the Appolatorento Committen. 3 Rady F Wounar CREWA, Ixr-Chancellor I E COLMAT, A, Tom of Care and Dad of the Faculty of Letters A A MILLI DEI'mol Geography und Deus of the Faculty ad Sweet RH STUDrtox D.Sc Trole of lortkalar od Dron of the Facolty of Aprutun o Hortxeltan JS.L. WALD ILS Lectore moltmi Hetery and for o Wantet i en to utility ·7 Shulald Y. Watam, A.D.S., FRS, Vior Chancellor 1 H. Coral, B., L. Veruber of Coral LE 9 EASTKAY, LLL LS. Profour of Loology GALO GALIT B PD Scolor Lectora Geography J W L. ADAO, HA Put those Lactorer b Ecool and Pwlo ophy, and Wade of C HAL AW Can D.S. PRIL, Hgstar Sudhow Atom DG TAO, MA Ver Chancellor AN ELCE, VA, Proclamical Engine D B. McNeal, TD H.SPD, AIDLP, Lectura o Phymict. B. A. Craum, LA, LL., Secretary uod Regener LA JS FULTON VA, Prope), Dalmaty Collop a Sood Vice Chancellor DWT JDOOR, WAProfesor of Education, Uorranty Cole a North Wes Bangor Jan Btoon, DSc, B.RS. Profumor o Zoolog & Compute Anatomy ULTEty College of South Wales allow mouth, Cardult GATT Rg A, D do 10 Po, Senior Lecture m Freoch. Uulveraty Callop Br. Unruhy College South Wa Ed, Enne CALDWIL, Ph.D, D.So Protor od Botany Umrpretty College of Hw H. NICOT, B. MAEd.), Principal. LIL Down, C.B.E, LA, LILLE, TIM TE- JICHO VA B.Litt Fr Proton of Panlooph * Prebolay H. W WADLO LIL PhD., Lecturerm Carouan. Unity Collem of Los Alderman C. Rho, CEIP Vico-Chalm of Coanal C. H Milon, LA, Prukcypal. C RABOUT ALSO., 12D Lectore La Chemistry E JP PRO, LA, Lecturer in Matboutin Uwlwmpy Catheryn y Vertu Shafford F A Yicy OB., Ph.D, F.In P., Procesor a Mysed Actroy Naopal H DODOX A., B.Sc., P R.BA, Mosbor of Coopal S. I HAD A Pror od bopophy R. X RATNL, XL Tutto Lecturer Ahorax. SU VLAX Scott Ix, LCIEC.SI LRestor Amor oo the Court E N. 1 CUIT LA D Pan, Prolomor od Matbouten D LET Let coin Pula Lorony A IL HACILIY QAC, VC, MD Hahal dio a curt 1 Sirot Hua Y S. AXOU, LA, LLD Secretary ·LAHAT I'roleror S JAVE LULOWTH ECOCHECH.H. PRC.S.E LLD, I Tolenor of Sorror WK SYITH W. Srovar Lecturer in Latin (IL SITY VI LLB (4 ratetary Glasgow Sur H1 TO HonID GTO Ꮒ Ꭰ . DL LLD., Dutt. Yxo Che Dox olaci TIL MACRO IRT DO Wat beputx Tbo Rer G H I GALLOI VI Dlint 1)D Thực Divity und Dublu I Cnt om JAMO O R ID D 11 IVh 1 YourL tin Con * Vechenxul Engineers Su duras TYLKO ITuleur of Vural Ph usay and bring Inspel ET COMO HADS Rur POT I Halbmatros und Dan I tho Fucolty free GR TUDIOP, IB C D ม D 16D I) PH, Loctorty M Matboks and red of lm out (odkene Hall Puncker The Or Baltas Ear ASJRY XD DI ILS Indent and Yer Chancellor ( ORG HOS AL LA JLB Lember of Snat FH Nou BOL II Proleur Imprudca and Secretary of the WudKTOK (OUL JCB KIVINmder o Hector w Ward of Queen Elmo OTHLR BLI ROSEVITICS IND ( PYTY duo of LwwThy Touchs L LOVLITT I 17) Prepdent (Lature Thyuk U CTLY Of Cumbndre) The RTI LORD CHORLEY OF DAL NJI CUTIDOT I'rebilent (Furt time Lecturer in London Shool frana mora & Politwaal Sur Utvenity 1 Luotto) R L'ANCAI 31. (Troloxor of (merman loven ti of larmingham C 21 RHOLY WA IDD (Lact met in Mathematx U croty Color Loodoo ) J LA TROST, LL D (Trofessor Law The Joren Van erity u Boban.) w YIL, L. 1 BD Po ) La tua bocal Study Co wy i Iberdeen) UHITTy Gran Courier ST AXTKUE TRUT LBL DERY Chairman mm DIYOTD C.A.FI ITokTPI P S No. 1 Su EDWALD HALL, LPE (B35 Sareten S. VY GUO, OBH HJ OLAY OBE DR1LI W WALTE AD CUG OHC 1, Suretu Inter Ustity Couet for Hykt Chaton u the Caloon. DML BLY D90 DEC 31 TTD pull i traty College of the Godd Court ·my Breton DESDE 9 JP BILATAY V4 17 D Scorer Loctine Charn, Deputocat of Econo, de England Unreonty College (Unranty of Sainoy) RT BOTLD BA, Director Edsation Georral Department Brutuh Lortul Su ALIUD CA S UDIN, LA, LL.D., LLD D Droit, D Litt FB, Director Looden Schnel 1 Ecodoo & Haitirai Sacoce, Uureauty of London. La Fu Bronx BS JP Secretary Norell Foundatco. 6 N Fur CB Print fery Witry of Ednabon FIK FUTR, 14. D.LAL D de IU.Necy Procesor of Foch, Umronty Liverpool. E HOD D.Sc. FRES. Rad u Look Omondty of Warton logrlu. SE DAVID LAUDAT KALIA, LLD Mer of Ballood Collet Ostford 11 km Socretary-General Internatruaal iv too Ummata. IL R. LAL, D.SC., Haule in Zoology Unventy of Luckoo S. DLAR, MŚc ID D.I.C, Probeer of Col Englaceres Queen Marverkty Oota A Coru, o d PU Rose MLA Sc.D Pronout, Upretty of Dublu Trimty College CM. MACIA, LA LL.D., Pratontor 1 Ionperral Hustory Um B. MALOL, LA Retne, Unancaty Hone hogy C.B.O VON, FLD r.LP, morat Protetor of Parks, LNT mty of Melbourne So WILLIAM Wor, h BI, C., Sectroary Scottbt Edration &. ILI DJhul Professor of Engh Laxouge od Literature, Mockland Votuty College, Umverty of New Zlod. 3 R. PWKLCBE D.Litt. Secretary and Trennet Cart Trort for the Und Scotland. MA, Lactueu Statuto and Ecoonpetxea, Unity of Bombay and Niall Foondation Domo P bor Sir MAONY ROSTTEALL, ILA Spor Car Inspector Ilustry of Edoanta. D A Roco, 1 Aunt Secretary Hud 1 Aadr Brach, maptry of Education. TH Sran, MA, Deputy Controller Ridecto Dinmon, Batista Council J O. Saun, VA, Ana Trofimo ad EcoDom Victodia Urrunty Color Vorverity of Ne Zabund. J IL SOTILL, W., FLP, So Loctur in cur, Deport muat ol Mathemata in Phymy, Now Lagland Uruty College (Vorunts of Story) RP TATLOL, Executin Santa Susanto, Unted States Educa boral Common the Unto Korken LGT TOWAL, M, Ron Vorty of the littood. Johanesburg LA TUT, 14 D.Litt, Donalddoo Follow St. John Callery Coobrila, od Putno a Hodeo Lapura Tharuty TOLLA N 8. HATUOTTE, A the Intel Coppel, Secretary of the Jout Committee for Cookwaalth Vermonty laterchange AA HILOC, 1%, Br, Seor Lecturer a Geography my uty of Velboots LU' Mo H. Horner of History factors tam ty College Uomtty dr Zeland. 5 S R22,

·For Sale
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Cole Nottingham.
tR. Bottom LA DU. BC. Vedlal Office Ustronulty of
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to FORON LLA. Principal, St. Voy. Colors Dorito
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For the Second Session
WD Fonen, H.Sc, Prydbologist Churft Noted Research
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Porth Tin Sanon
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uod atpal Six..
Saruoy of Commi.. F FOSTER, WA, LLD Secretary Con
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Api Secretary AL FLINT LA
Report of Conference ProcessingsT CruG, LA
th Cthe Dormity The People
het woorden

·II FIRST SESSION FRIDAY ATELOON DOOR LITH HALLS OF RESIDENCE AND STUDENT ALIENITIES Chorus CR WORZ, YA LID Vice-Chancellor University of Loods, and Cburuan, Comuuttes of Vico- Chuocallaos ud Principal Summary curculated former to the conferene of won by De Ere Aetby 1 It is not the purpose of this paper to question the benef that a reudential umiverty offers its students better oppor tunities for work und for recration than non rendental university Some Univerite are onttrely rendentral other are well on the way to becoming o other pren forward in the hope that one day they may become residential It 16 only to aniverzties in thu third category that the enguments in this paper ut addrered. The purpose of the paper is to discom whether for this third aategory of universities, there are ter nativo arrangements which all confer an sudents many of the druntages of residence ate capital outley lew then that Deeded for bastele 1. It annot be uxl that to Hye in lodging deprivata student of the advantage of univeauty life, for in my one yeur me 44 per cent of the stadents at Orford and Cambridge live in lodgłoga Tho Rudent who needba renkenthal 2ccoanmmodation (or some alternative to it) to the student who lives at boone, and wbomo loyalties to his family often canfi.ct with his loyalties to the univerzity The paper will therefore emphaste the needs of the booze student 3. There are pine Bith initiative over 40 per cent of the student live at bote. The number of body gudents in Chex pine malveruties in 1940-JI 34,289. The approxmate cost of accommnodattoa theo tn hostek orea for one year of their courses would be pot less than £14 milkos, and for ther whole courts roald be of the order of t$0-150 millions and there would of course be a Corespoadingly large increase in allowances made by the Ministry of Education and Letto there to receipt of maintenance nota. Eron if the unirerdth werd #o impressed with the need for residence that they threw tradition to the white and bellt alummum bongalow hosta accommodation, the capital cost of bousing a boono students in there dine univeruths for one mor only would be 6-8 milions, ·+ If it u awined that capital son of these duoctisions will not be available to accommodate sudents who hre at home nthin reasonable distance of the micrsity then the nine utraties with an arenart of so per cent of their sodants living at bome have to contemplate alternative ways of pro ndog the amenities which accompaus residence 5. That there are alternatives is evident from the healthy ud full student life to be found in contmental untatiet. Indeed many continental oninesitles, us ancient and as distin gushed 23 any Bnthh aniversity would reject our residential Sitem us emacking of paternalism 6 The alternativen centre round the Hodents union. The pont will be made that the tnditional Large unson to be found in some cvk universities could not In its present form become a stable substitute for rendence. The solution may lie n the modification of wtons, by decentralization bi proriding encang menh and facilities for privato entertaining in brief bir making available to the student all the benefits of tradential life except bed and breakfast. The paper will end with some discution of the consequences of this proposal to ufversitter LE L. and adkonts ibem.seres TABLE (From the LGC returns from Universities and University Colleges 1950-51 ) (a) \umber of students in lodgings at Oxford in 1950-51 3.303 (45-8. of total) at Cambridge 3384 (+19 of total) (6) Vumber of students in tng at home in nme Bntuh ciuto unitate U kwy dwords la Iris din Dummybem Awak Louds Liverpool London Hanxhakt Ibadato Lamborgh Glas 3,185 3,23 319 13.4 4.31 I gyo 5.327 3.358 1,377 1730 1.343 1,863 tor 2,000 979 Yig 4,770 34,139 Total 43 6y ·13 Tho CHATSAX Thb is the seventh of tho post- perlo of conference, and it is tho I think, the biggest of the conferences yet hold Univutios wate Invited, when they thought it suitable to increase their representatic beading m mod tho cobjoct which were going to be discused. They have dearly taken uyntage of that arrangement, and tho conference bu httle larger than txual. The conference in Urungod, or has been of rocent ytan to stvo ach year an opportunity for a fico uod homely dacordo of such thing as, to fudge from what has happened in the course of the your it worm that we should bko to descon Among the advantages which have been found to that if airythung very totaaling ba bedog started to any one univeraty o ero opt to hear of it at the confecce while on mich questions u for instance the attitude of the markertlar to national wervice and whether indegndmtos should do their national service before or after thair period at the untreaty the conference has provided a cury way of doorvering which may university opinion bs moving We found a change to it in that reppact which riprised many of that the conferenco two year ago Altogether It gives u very good idea of whether a particular untvendty ponko to establishing trall onu given topic, or whether opimon has not yet sottled down Wo particolady value the natbor bowely and free way in włoich an dic things here. We have reported the temptation whilch increasing each your to allow the confer co to becoooo bigger We haro kept it to apmall rolathely confidential us, and we have all lourdod to valoe that Wo aro, as always inmensely grateful to tho Univeruty of London for allowstog u to meet in this ball, und we shall express our thanks to them at the end of thus confcrcoce. \vo con congratulate one another on baving a good reporontation from the untrerettles and from the Association of Univerzity Testien We uro delighted to me that the Chalupan and Seattery of the Grants Committeo hayo again found time to spite of the great preoccupation, to be with for the conference. We have abo a conddernblo number of dotingubbed visitor uod guests from bodred frostitution, from oversus nod ideed from every mide background. I shall not reature to Ay Laythte to introduce the subject of discodon thu afternoon bat I donld like to mentio for what it is worth, that it is notkeable that at thks conference for the first time, all three sobjects ure rury closely related to the undergraduate. As it is pretro of general interest all round the unirudta which pushes objects to the fore eod leads to the choice it fnteresting to find at this conference that J three of our objects have the student us their rent of Interat ·We are usually fortunate in our speakers at this conference, and on this occasos cure particularly happy in having Dr Ashby and Dr Jurplures to open the rubject for us Dt Axbby has already offered some contnbutions on this topke in pelat. ERIC ASHBY D.& ADDIC PLA President and Vice- Chancellor The Queen University of Belfast The Homo Untverwtie Conference de conference not a RT of lectora Theredaro ell that is expected of me is to part a decidiam Tho stromary which has already been arculated to you (sce PT. IT and 1a) contains the bones of my argument What I shall do dom s to clothe them in a few more facts and opinions. Let me begin by saying I hope the discussion will centre round the specific problem of this paper and Dot breuk look Into uoprodtable generalities. About the relative merits of a reedential and non-residential venty I have nothing w to R I am convinced and I amune everyone che lo that a readential unirenty is better Therefore this after Doon - programme should have no relevance for a reddential trafverkty and not much relevance for a aniversity well on the way to becoming reddential Abo though it be relevant to this discurton I onnit any consideration of tho padblem of student lodgings Nearly balf the gudents at Oxford and Cambodge in any one year are living in lodgings, and although thors may be deplored no ce seriously contends that it weakens tho corporate bit of these two univeroties I bope therefore that thu dr? won will concentrate on the problem of the student h ing at home. I have elsewhere argued the C2.50 that tl Wudent who lives at home a worx off than tho Audent who lva in lodging the chief argument is poychological Vet day students came from very modest bottom. Indeed there u good reason to sumo that one might aspect OVTT 70 per cent of the students to come from home where the Incomo u 1 than £800 p. I hardły need to remind you what ths is ans in many home only onto fire in winter the younger brother or sister dotrg bumerork at the same tablo fixed meal time which cannot be varsed without riving mother more wort and above all an trevitable clash of Loyalty between the rivendity which is all the timo sophagung-and nghtly so--that being a student whole time job and home where family dubio faco students particularly worden students us soon as they are in the borse Somo parents are belpful and encoungo the student to ture hople for bed and breakfast during these predloos yenn. Other parents doo t (and could bardly be a pected to) ko this Umut Out Pals No ? Febron 1951 Nouma sanatli Hea of Ernina Toronto Ltd, London) ·15 polot of 172 and they continue to demaod obligations which are not consistent with student life. The student in bodging may be poorly fed ad tt.comfortable but at laut bebas do obligations of loyalty to his londady! There are uno Betuah umroute (I prirporely wut reference to the meerdty m which I am walang) where over farty per cent and on an averige fifty per cunt) of tho students live at home. For 000 of these tho percentage is a high u 76 You have the figures before you. In these nino UTIVEtat some 24,000 students go bomo ach night dorty all of them to duties and dygtnctions and loyalties which conflict with those of the univerety It would cost some 44 millions to provide bostel accommodation epoth for all of then to live m for ons YT only of thelr course and some [40-50 millions to provide hostel accommodation mnough for ai of them to live in all the time. Let m put these ngures in perspective According to the report of the Select Caanmittee an Estimate the amount pent by all the Both Im verutles on gudent rendance in the soven year 1945-52 2 1 million Thero w doubtle other nov bioldmg (og at college at Oxford and Cambridge) tomard whrch no Ut C grants were made bat £1 1 millions represents to main cost of new bulding for sodat repdence It A mpoanble to say hom many more reddential places have been provdal by thus expenditure, because some of it has been on batchens come to adapt cruting bolding and somo for new building But oven an optimet trould not suggest that more than I 400 students 1 year aro benefiting from the expendituro and from the information some vice-chancelos have been bind enough to give me, I thil the figure is loser than tha Furthermort of this 12.1 millons, only $386 000 teams to have been spent in any of the ntoe uiroration whero tomo 50 per cent of the Audenta live at home in other word, of the 40 000 stodont to the nine unventies who are the rabjort of this tanoons paper probably not more than zo hare benefited from tida opeodlturo, though there has been one further increase in accommodation by minor cependiture auch us the convention of potato homes into hostek Bat by and large the problema of Anhing reudeoco for the 34,000 honda students in these nine umiratio bus marcely been affected. The goestion I want to rate for ducumion - bos what abould our polky be for bome students to these noe bargo atle 1 Let me atoo revert post buities (.) TO contlove the present policy of boldine cough bostels to sccommodato al rodants for at least one year This ronll cost pomo (14 millon. Now the total expandi twe from. 1945-1 hy niedo all my bonhling projects to of the order of £10 milions and unrendtia ura ·nowhere near the end of their needs for new buildings for teaching and research So if the policy is adopted there is Do justification for hoping that it will benefit maay students foc (ay) the next fifty years (6) To recognise that ruidential Accommodation so important that wo thror to the winds the tradition of bulding utractive but crpcrare hosted and instead pat ap utility building. There a, uter all, kombethmg in the now It only by tradition that re have como to pocute aniversities with elegant building At matrculation and degree ceremonies wa nevar tirt of telling students that the averaty i urodety of people and, like a rogunent (wuch by tndition is boured in ludeous baldings) its prestige is not dependent on the eleganco of its premmed Thu B a modification of policy (a) If we adopted this polscy we would do laager Assume that each student place costs Knito £1 800 We would recalculate the cost of boctots assuming they are put up hko army burracks. A firm which maka anottorcy alumdmam buldings has boon good crough to calculate for me the worlmate cost per place of a hostel for Igo students built in one gordy out of ahudiram. It works out at £800-£900 per student place and the manufacturers daim that it can be created to 33 per cent. of the time taken to put up the tnditional type of bulduk This would provide all tho amonitics of a ball of rendenco on a bungalow system But even this would cost Kono 70 mullion for the 24,000 bomo students, twico y moch u Wa spout o al building la ul unlvendttes from the end of the war to February 1932 or £6 million to £8 million to accommodate students for at laut oao year And It woald by no means solve the whole probleme, becaus berkdo tho 24,000 Hodents m thoro nine universities who live at homo thero aro wonxe 7 000 students who live at home and attend other unlveretes, besido somno 33 000 stodonts in lodginga. There would bo other important coosequences of ather of theto two poida if they were purased. The cost to local odacation autboritics rooli be considerably increased. Doubtlen sorte tutbodtias mould meet the Incretsed cost Othere might do so only by restricting their actintes in other ather by pplying a stiffer means test or by malding fewer awards The consequence might be that for some stodet financual barriers to . university, education, which have been largely removed by recent logtalation would reappear (c) A third posubility though I don t mymall think it is worth woo coadidendon, would be to make all students Tro in bdgingI mention it now only to reject it without farther argument. Unlu accompanied by other proposal ·17 to wuch I shall refer the moment thu muald not solve par problem et ul. (1) The lare for beson fourth alternativo which has Hronty received como publdty among Betish univerite pobcy Irpeat) rutablo only for e unfrunty which hu at Hout half the stockats living at home and wuch to malog comparatively Uttie program in providing cadence for the It te policy which befly) albom parents or laddledia to pouvide bed wd breakfast, but enoures that the rest of the studant day can be peat maboat the matvarnty Let mo run over To uguneta for und gainst thus alternative I begin with some argument in it favou od I furt with un argument of pamcaplo. You rocall that residence was enforced in medieval tratverete u . diophonry measure, and not to provido wbat enthodists nguely descubo us mdefimble advantages of corporate lile It was omforted at a time when boyi mght go up to a miyeuty at the age of fourteen You know also that although thbs ancient tradition of enforting reddenco in halls pershts m Ortod and Cambridge and in somo modern British universities which model them welves on Oxford and Cambodge, nevertheless it has been abandoned by almost all the other andant ulvendtla of Europe It is hard for us, who do not question that hells of reudenco are the ideal for unverulty to realise that it be Ideal rejected by many continental univerite, not bocano At bo out of reach, bat because it coraklerod underrible. A Swedish gradoate recently desatbed it u " the system prevalent in Anglo-Saxon countpe of berding students together under relatively strict rupa iton to colleges Anyone who is famoliar with continental universities kom that unbrauties like Uppala, Montpellier Göttingen and Utrecht havo a cospanto life as bealthy ma that in our oldert umiver ties, and wcholastic attainment u distmguished. Yet thoy are not residential. So we can coodtodo that the desirable cobertnice the wore of belonging to a cioty which our mort fortunato universities Lotuire through the residential system 1 tcquired to other places by other meam. The other means are stmply to provide facilities for students to eat together and to rder and art and talk together tven thoorh they do not keep under the more roof in brief to provido in uafvendte undons Taything wuch bostal provides, eroept the accommodation and plumbing and labour Involved to providing bed and breakfast. Let me dow giro two other argudents In favour of this policy My second argument to financial Soch a polky u tha to pructiable fimocally As I bare mentioned ebon here i good deal of the capitu ud maintestact costs of a ball of raidence to devoted to mshing stuckuta and keeping them ·19 3 } 1 ei Tm esteep These are the least important featwo of creponato wie Architects have been good enough to work out for me that the capul nooded to buld. bosted for igo gudents could I spent on a non provide all tho das tuo aibentles of u bosted for 900-1 000 Aulents It could therefort bereit at least de una u many students to pat it another post of what we want might be accomplished in ons- arth of the time Ny third argument s one that may not neph heavily with bomo of you but it does rogh beanly with me. It seems to me that many of th long-range policies of unitate will provide opportunities for our great grandchildren at the experbe of our children Supporr ke rengn ourselves to the fact that it may take ofty year to malo there none Bntlih unrvergtie iend :tial, and we deode to mato no elaborate Interin artan m nua then indeed the children to be born in the ninelt Ishte w doubticu be grateful to as Meanwhis 4? Generations of 34000 bocne students ma thực: 1 ITT & quarter of million student, may baive to shartcornings of gum -5pm. university I canni! incling that the menty administrator how 1111 duke compromise) has to stnko . cordpromi 1 sulfilling our obligations to the present and houth) ith tuture the arguments in lavour of putting our money int 11111 ther than halls of residence There are of *1! Angaments against thn policy One is that rr its from the principle that all aniversities mutumn 1 litet be rrudential then we shall never recover tbe prin nd in fact the big aty universite will never even in t por une residential Nany of you may bellovo that to han ih policy nor would do great and permapeot hurmt 1712 aniverkty life Another that for better or more what bult our det unirerties in by ugly abier Theret re we Annat bore without residence to acquire the comprent_uft which u achorplished without rezidence for wali tomu bke lppoala in other words to great conudental wyerute mall towns are bot good models for our duc mirtute in large ches There ar mht less other arguments vuest the poucy of abandonate the dea of roadence in these nine umiversitas rut I shall and a few moments not outline the bod of facilities wh utuon should proud if it is to replace rendere The fint prinople must be that to belong to a uniseris a whol time job The mion mot the fore help the student to ed alt hus making boon at the unity Plany unions already offer the #udent al sort of club facilities in CORIN if ·19 the opening Bot we deed much more than this. If the todent wants to rock hom bo able to find e qaret place in the gatverdt buy or in the labontory or o study rooms in the moo (in the nor on a mulon of out ontverkty thero ero poveral omal study room which bold four or fivo students ach, and they are full overy night) If be ment to entertata e fow friends he should be able to hire a room cheaply ud bare bls party there, tostead of baring to take them homo uod pat a strain on the family ration book. It he wants to spend the evening listening to mmophone records he should be able to get a mall room where ho can play what holla. All the mains a much larger number of mall rooms than most mors have in addittom to the couumanar fadithes for billiards, Alms and television and so on. The most important provalou should be for evening meals with a mack ber which provides coffee and cocoa up to 10.30 And this bring me to ao proposal woch would need good deal of negotiation. There would be considerable reestance to the idea that a sodant bould stay at the university till IO JO overy night both from parmat und from students Ono way to war the restanco down rould be to includo in the fees the cost of a standard eventog maal (my for fou dryn a week) which the stodent would have to attend Wc would have to perando LEA. that this is a proper chart for tbem to meet Lently there bo uspect of the proposed policy on which great deal of thmhing has still to be done. In a largo unferuity would not a dngle union or two umors (oro for pen mod 000 for women) be too big unft evur to have a corponte 1H ? Im Inchood to think it would. The Univeruty a Glagot for mstance would have to provide for Dearly four thouand men students who live at home or to loddaga Would it not be better to hate xovonal muall union, each with to own atemg facilities and common rooms, und to portando students to reagobe internal athletic events on an Inter-unlon, botad of an Inter faculty bads? Thia would, of cotto be more expensive than bang one enormon un om but it would cost caly a fraction of the cost odhal. of reldolce. To take pecific enampilo in one university two larre bounds have recently bee converted, at cost of about Ero ooo including the cost of purchase to a woven union which could comfortably accommodate como 900 women at ooce 14 ut a cort of some £67" pa ret" Would It be better to make another the inloos 11e this from other private boud each to become the centre for 300 Den stodents or rould it be better to build De imion for 1,800 me stodents ? I would like to od with a ped6c magestion. We are ·20 ladng e prending uod important problem I hope that this obcasion will lead to 000 of two conclusions Other that the wygested policy for those mide arte univerpties which une mill fur from being residential B forth a toal, or that it but If it is morth a tml, then I have a mogation to make. There a still a lot of thinking about the policy to be done by experts Four year ago & commixtion (many of wbowo members are bere this afternoon) did in tezko Tko to British umivendthes by publlahinga rrport on the planning of balla of reudence An immense amount of experience and thought went into this report I think me bould be wet to me that just as much thought and carpentenco need to be concentrated on the planning of unions, If the aro to provido a genuine alternative to rendence I have mad Dothing today about the student organbation of unions, or the need for a wurden rather than the worl steward in the post of unions I contemplate. If after the dukion It docs seem to you worth stule to provide for day students the ementul benefits of halls of residence, one would like to see a milar comidon (or better till the inno comm RSXOD, for they have already inalyzed the needs of students in residence) asked to propere a report on mons autable for tho nine brgo dvic univendtles most of whoso students live at bome. We want to know more about tha deswn of unions for the new prutpose the economies or evening moals the sort of murden needed, the consequences to LEA and to parents and the adjustments in athletics and other activities which studenta themelves might be uked to make HF HUXYHRTY OBL 2.CTD DL M.B at KDS LID 0.4. TIA Vice-Chancellor and Principal, Univeruty of Birmiogban I propore to accept the limitations opgested by Dr Ashby end to take for granted the advantago odered by a rezidential univeraty Bat I hopo that I shall not be thought gaillty of giving you glimpse of the obviow if I try for the ato of crystalling discardon to mention what thout adventures are-or pabapes I would my what they appear to me to be add to consider bor many of those adventures are mbared by a nan rodential university and bow many of them can be acquired by adopting wome Auktion which Di Ashby has pot forward. The first and most obvious trotago, of coun, is that gudents to a residential univendty baro 1 root of thefr OWA in which they on do that putte sodies of talk with a friend. That advantage I mort, is certainly obtained by Hodenta THE PUT U truy By {_RTHANH Rohort of Che mbushen apporto commit of Victharlort and Predpals of Gro Brion and Inne (lectados Pre Orford, 1976) ·21 I who livo in good lodging Di Ashby has stated that pearly half the students at Oxford und Cambridgo uom fact livmg in lodging. It u obtuned by studenta wo har 1 otting room ar bed atting room in a home of their own and whilo I latening to Dr Ashby I wondered whether perhaps the homme conditions m the South may pot bo quito o guim u thoro which he puctured in the North at my nte, not so many complaints have reached me Thut is the fire advantage of hiving to hell od roddence, The other throe adrantage I will briefly simme would put second though it is really the most importantthat cros-fertibaattoo o dass which can wen students in different faculties ind undaguing different ducipline meet together for their meals in the juntor common room cod moon, and realize that the particular dedimo to which they art bomg tnlned 13 got the only one which ha vahd. That has Immouc value Tbc nat the staff student coatact the contact of immature with mature momoda of youy men and women in earch of values with those bo have found them. Finally there is the training which is given in community Hfe. In An Overcrowded wuld we are all obliged to live in communities and unlese o get some truning Community Living during our time at tho univerzity we shall be bandicappod throughout life and will the state of which foam a part. Thoma last three advantaget-tho effect of the studenta on one another staff-student contacts and community Hringconstitute amverty alcahon opponed to the indon which stodenta get in thehr lectura and laboratoda Wo aro facod with the difficulty whilch Dr Ashby mentioned that they are not acquired at any rato to full wulue, 1f tho community b a very loge ode. If you bave a mob of 3 000 students willing roumd without any agregation into analler groups the value of those facton lo very largely lost That bwhy sudents at redential university organused to colkeso at those vlaes o moch more than students at a non- Tendental university wbo here to go umy a moon as the last lecture of the day is over and undatako pataps un boars foamey to their home a lodigiosa So far u lodgings une concertoi, I most dire to moglo ertent with Dr Ashby I do not think that it posible to compet godents at Oxford and Cambrilse who are living in lodgings with students living in the Amo way to a cinc upversty break in fact the sodents at Orard and Cambridge who Ilro In lodging are just u moch part of the college u those living inside it they may have another hundred yards to go to ball bat they dise in hall and use the junior corronon room. There to the further wdranhunt that ·23 Oxford and Cumbodge are all place compend with Glasgow Birmingham and London so that their universitics bave a proportionally greater local importance and their lodging are never far froen college The tendency of students to segregate themselves into maller groups ma avic univenty pon erful because they feel fnstinctively that unles they do they will not obtain in full measure the four advantages which I bave described The all know how they do it They bave their athletic dubs and other cabe theatre groups, debatlag societies and so on COTTespooding to the OUDS and the union at Oxford They have also something which u distinctive of the civic umiyeruty the technxcal socketies. Every branch of studymedical, dental minog metallurgy ogineering its student society and these societies provide the undergraduate with hin fething of community They have bowever one great dadvantage that the subjects for devedon uro Largely technical To get the best out of their univerdty education modents should consort mth others who are under * different discipline We have tried recently m Birmingham to mitigate that duadvantage m two ways We have sogested to these student societies that in thar programme of meeting, which Urally take the form of a lecture followed by a discouron at least once a term they should have a docthan on konc Don-technical subject. We provide them with a panel of people who ure willing to come to talk to them on some much theme. It is of great value for them to take part in or to listen to a discusion of something unconnected with their own discipline Wo have also recently tried to perioade them -- al voluntary--that at the end of the meeting which Dormally take place when the last lecture of the day over starting at 5pm. and going on for about two bours-imtead of going to their lodging or bonds they should go to the umon and bave supper there and during muppe talk with other groups of students and perbap with the staff who terally mupport these technical meetings and who would go with them In that way they have a free and informal conversation, which has improved the value of these meeting of the technial societies So far I have spoke of the disadvantages of the large unlon as compared with the small college but let to admit that it hus certain advantages Here I should like to speak of our esperience in Burmmgham At Birmingham the University Gants Committed financed the building of a new wing for the union, which wus opened but year wodne bave sow I think the largest mon in the country We are able to accommodate 1 500 people for any one meal. That lon 14 managed ·23 citirely by the students themselves. It is qofte e large wdataling, with a tumorer of 100 000 your-£50 000 on catering £10 000 on the ordinary ruoging of the mon und 30 000 on paras other things. There are of Coun, certam checks. On the imance committee tbare vo ono or two memben of tho staff, one of whom hus to digu cheques, and on the buildings commttet thero in alio membed of the staff but by und large the whole of this vary large buonato harun by the students themselves That » a very valuable training in respon ability and in management, and I venturo to think that ft ba perhaps one of the roots why differences of opinion with tho police are la numerous to Birmygham, I am given to understand, than in most other um voraty towns m this country The Andents do Lequirt a deep sento of responatlity to the may end aape the paternalin which is often ated us a antion of the readeptual college I have nothing very much to add to Dr Ashby s pructial migrestions for obtaining at les cost much of the vaino which bobtained in och full metsuro residential uoverty except to tell you somethmg of oor axperimenta in Burminghan It dift.calt to believe hat the art of Hte which y lived in an Oxford or Cambridge college could be extended to a modem aniverkty ar lf it were that it would be a nuecer The frcomes of Oxford and Cambodge colleges range from about £90,000 a year to £130 000 and in some cases a little more I do not Ruggest that that to come spent solely an mamtaining the college a hall of reudence The colleges opport fellows and do a good deal of the teaching work of the umivendty Nevertheless its very ribotantial incide und it u uhkely that the cvic untvaritia coold ever afford to copy the Oxford or Cambridgo college which is much more than a ball of residence It be complete community for pocial and tenching purposes, and I know of Dothing oho in the country which is quite tho me le must think of something lespenstro than that Dr Ashby pabliabod bis sporting artido corty but your to the Umwente Quarterly be may be forproted to learn that, as often happens to people with dames prominent to tho public plod, bus surname has now become an adjective la Bumangha I preside over an Ashby Countteo we have an Abby plan, and oven Ashby lodging The first operiment which we puted mu that of trainy male We have the facilities for prostating them and to started than the year To encounge the student to go we have also bept tho bring open in the evening Thao ano gint demand for Abrary fadlitia uta 8 or 9 pm. bat there is a great demand between 5pm uod 7 p.in od then the students go for a meal to the imion The dumber of thon taking on mening meal there ·24 u beth ATI 300 und 400 and it is golog op I have to accurate knowledge of bow many of these are students living in Lodging a living at home, but I bave the mpression from souch inquires u I have made that it is about ball sad hali Perhap the borba are rather better to Birmingham than the North I keep a close watch on thu crperment and I notice that after the meal by over at 8 p.m. a 9 po.. there is no great demand for labairy faahtia the students go back to thetr home or lodgingo and work there I have thought of De Ashby solution of providing wall roots for study und mo have discuped it The dat idee which we had, inspired by Dr Ashby *23 that of Ashby lodgings. The Ashby Lodging in our definition, to where the landlady taka studeata only for bed and breakfast and the week-end, and for the rest of the time they have their ments m the taxon That is very recent asperiment. I wrote a letter to the Birmkom Post Lust humer advertiang the fact to lendladies and I persuaded the editor of the Birmingham Pod to pabbah a landmg article tho ame day We had many inquire from LandLadies, and it dar that thu will be very popular with them The response from the students was not to great because many of tho students wbo Pero led to livmg and foeding in digy wanted to go on doing but there was a very gratifying response from freshmen For this first term we have too people in Ashby lodging and xboat 60 per cent of them uro freshmen. Freshmen like the idea and I have worde confidence that the npubers 11 accordingly merok There is another alternative which we have not yet adoptod bat whoxch 19 e posubalty, to be borno to mind. It meam building Dr Ashby told us that his aluminium hall of realdeoco rus going to cost about $900 per student Tbe Univernty of Birmingham sponsor the University College of North Staffordshiro at Stoko on Trent. It is now erecting a hall withoat Loy feeding facilities became there is amplo dintre accommodation in tho existing refectory Anyano who has had to run . hall of tradare know that tho Iloconant part of it is the atering, which costs great dal of money and may notre o considerable lon, for its dificult to cater economially for 150-200 people. Stoke on Trent, therefore us building a hall without atentag facities, though It provides the stadents with their parato rooms rooms and so on That is being done at a cost of lan than {600 per student housed two-thirds of the cost of the Qurtuluy bungalow and only coo-third of the cost of 4 Domoal ball of rendence. In these town where the pomber of lodging fs limted, or where it necesary to travel com DOD ·25 coulderable dataDce to reach them, that san ka which muht well be burse in mind. The question and whether under och conditions there will be a full a community life as s obtanad in u Odord OT Cambridge College, Podbly not, bat if there are common rooms and students from diferent faculties muz thoy will go bomo way towards it I do not think that the most valuablo portion of community hying to Oxford und Cambodgo is dining in bull. I apologize for having ud orch about our own expert meats m Burmingham But I had nothmg to add to tho anul proportions which Di Ashby put forward, ad I thought that it might mterest you to know what had been our aperience m starting the experiments which were migrated by his article Tbo CHARXLAY I now invite dachon. I ought to have wald m my opening romerb that we are delighted to buvo with so many manber of the common which prepared for us tho report on halls of roedence * a perce of work for which we are all extremely grateful. Ir C. H. STEWART (Edebwe) It is perhaps appropriato at this arly stage in the discogon to report to the conferenco that the Univery of Edmband had been thinking about this problem oven befare Dr Ashby's article appeared. It has sdopted a policy (though it bus not yet take it very for) wbich hu ymilar to that greated by Dr Ashbry To bavo pubhdy stated, and here in fact informed the University Grunto conmittee that it the miverkty policy while recognidag the valuable contribution made by ball of residence to the academic community and while actually planong to create the aunber of pieces m its fuis ot roaldene, to provide within a relatively limited urea in the centre of the city all the facilities required by students within the welding hours of the day We bave not uI my taken that policy very far in practice, partly on account of lack of funds and of the decary bunklung bcerca within the last quinquennium, borrerer wo hayo oproct ono additional coinmon tour in the Old Collego for both in and women stodonta le coold not at potent have otro large tuloa, va f mo wanted to do so bocauto could not word to build it. We aready have spent ocas and worden a among and the men union enhed utch too Km. He have therefore been forced to coordde the mosha WMA by a ww ww So footrop to ·(Lo far mixed common room) Probably the next two or three to be provided will be mixed common rooms catening for 200 to 300 students each The Codrt has nos instituted a committee (which, following u carlier tiggestion we may dow find it convenient to call the Ashby Coromittee) which to camming the whole portion of the proynion of unfors and common rooms throngbout the aniversity available to all student It is relevant ako to menon that we are prending on with our plans to provide a staff hours on quite a large scale. It mean to m Edinburgh that it is important pot merely to Givo the student somewbed to rt and comowhere to eat in ther DOD-Torking hours, but also to make it posublo for our staff to spend some time apart from their voring hours, on univerzity promises and to be avulable to me and to mix with the students, and to take come part in their activibes. Yr J K L ADAMS (Steffida) As a more warden in the distinguished gutbetty Iwu pomewhat relored to find that Dr Ashby was not proposing to purgo the halls altogether despite his experience behind the Iron Curtam! It seems to me horever that be has made too big a distinction between the problem of the student Hving at home and the problem of the student living in lodging Students living in Lodging bave a greater degree of mobillty brut their problems ure very much tha ume and I think that Dr Humphrtys by hbo contribution has restored the balance and has shown that fundamentally the Ashby solution applicable also to students living to lodging What I am not happy about in Dr Ashby propomel b the Inking of it to the student anion It keerra to do that there bu deed for a student union which 1, us it were, an all aniversty chub just us there is a deod for a staff booke osa staff dab but I believe that the pattern of this new development ooght rather to move along the lines of what may be alled the non-residential ball I think that the raportant point about halls ta that they provide what may palapa bo alled the parochial argentation of the university or they thould do 0 Au De Humphrey ay, tho reason why tho older unicuta an get along with all theft Hodents llving to lodging is that they already have the corporato organisatiota into which those Det fit If you bere this theme on the union you are to womentent leaving the university stuff out~unavoldably because the umon L traditionally the students club run by the studenta. Whilo miny, of were no doubt honorary members of our students unlons, Te ure there very much a gratia In his article in the Uutxules Qutely Dr Athly ·emphasised that this business of establishing bridges between the staff and the students in the circumvenuta u of first-clan Importance. I think it may bo porble to do that by adopting mat of what I would all the non-rendental hell pattern. I do not want to go foto detul of Eccommodation and organa to, but we want more of the pattern which brings in a smo Common room in the unit nthar then linking It ap with the im.com organization. That mens to me to be important, because we require in our parochul oraamaton monothing which intimate and therefore not too large mothmg whilch bring the staff in and monetlung which bring together tato o organised community godents from all over the university from all departments and aspects of the university : life We need not be red by the counter argument that the propouls for more residential animoruty will be adversely Proctod. Dr Ashby made it clear in ho uticle and bu made It car to dar that for Cortata purposes tho realdential halls still important and should still have public support I do not think hoover that even the most optimstic of us ever originally thought to terms of taldng all students out of bordo into reducence. That would be much too big an undertaking It seems to me, however that we con tantain the essence of the Ashby plan which I very much welcome, and I hopo that it will be further looked into we have the reddantua. bal for students coming from a distance, or for u murny of them w powible and at the same time bave the other organon tion which will provido e parochial umt for those whom wo cunnot for the procent acomodato in lunl. I do real difficulty in having as it wren, turo proog to oth programmo. As the goes on, if it wem Anandally posible to go more to the idea of roodeper, there non-reudenthal halls could provide the inclou for residential balls in the future. Mr WS ANGUS (Aberde) I think that we from north of the Bordes bould apologa for the fact that two Secretaries of Scottish untrasties ure presuming to addren the conferenca on what is perhaps a peculiady English topic. I ay that partly to point a moral which I belkre to be very important In the connection, sunety that each anvenity should think out its own problemy it is dangerous to generalize or to comelder transplanttag an Institution lock stock and barel from Oxford Cambridge or wherever it may be, to a different xt of circumstances One important factor to whether tho onivendty, is stated in a hige to-sut be frequently alled i dyte upierdty-or in a wall tuse It I patapo true that it mort important to go away from home than It is to lire ba hall of iedence ·I should bke to amplify what was said by W Adam, that We must not lose sight of the flexbility of the Ashby plan. Here I am thinking of bat I have seen happening in St. uthbert Soolety the Dod-collegiate organisation at Durban. It pronda for a mumber of students living m lodging nth dons to advise there and to exercise tatoual perution. The stage has been reached of stoc that boo-collegato Pactra beadquarters house to which students can be expected to come for a certain number of meals in the tels and a certum number of audents can even be provided with sleepmg accommododation It la perfecth posable for anoch an organnation to develop by gradual stages over a period of years into one wbero a higher and higher proportion of the students Uve in. It is equally posable for it to be an organ tatron where most people live out, and in a movelty 1 high proportion of whore #odents live at home because it w a tanty big town, such an oricansation will bare us members. Toet-section of those from . ditance and those whose homes are in the town. By that means probably better than by any other we can hope to induce tbe man who lives at home first of all to become beraber of a society wbere he can have facihties to work and drac m the evenings and to Locate with others and then to hve in the buildings belonging to that society Profchor JL VOXTROSE (Association of Umresity Trockets) One of the principal reasons for wtuch I welcomo the Ashby mutuatire is that it has put an end to a large atent to what I would call the boger of the residential aniverdty. Tay often the resdentual untreaty du bas been put forward as a hindrance and an obstacle to real programa Sorpebody pota formed a chembe which we canader bene dal to tho Rodents and then the objection is malsed "le, if you bad a Tendental university that would be all very well and all that you want could be accomplybed, but the only way to do it b to bava a residential university Then, 3 you have not the money to make the unhet reddential, vou do not get the advantages of the residential umsersity or of any other scheme wbuch has been put forward I venture to disagree with what has been mid on the question of bether it has worth while Looking at the theory of the rendential university in this discussion I am glad that Dr Huruplures has spoken about this because he bas conbdered the advintages and the dundantago of a red denthal madity and it is traportant to do so It follow froan the fint point which I bade. I do not think that the Dotion of residenthal menty is an end in twelf I look apon residence at a university on the Odord und Cambridge ·39 plan u a symbol of dedication to the high purpose Randonos be moun to in and let u condar at the end in Di Humphrey hu referred to some of the educational ata which might be achieved through residence. I would mention to other because I believe that thexe au bo attated equally by the Ashby plan It seems to mo that what the residental ansanity does really exemplify the notion that thostodent is dedicated to wort' of real fraporteco that hivernity work calls for the full stretch of a student's Intellectual and phytal poros that he going to be fully employed. I thmk that this was that tho gudent is engaged on rotnothing which reprezenta full-timo sody can be cursed out fut us well by the Ashby plans by a reddentul ontreruty The other paint a that the digarty and beauty of Oxford und Cambridge impress there on the student by making him iran of the real importance to herself and to the community of univerzity rock. It shonid bo pomblo for u to got that idee Over outddo the reddential univerrties. It - havo tbero doals o abonld sook to obtain then by soch meus #s are available and the Ashby plan om to mo to be the best mans enllable to untvtraties with very Hmoltod finandul turces—that bo to my all umvendte in the United Kingdom. Mr J C. BECETT (Oumns Bdjas) Tbero uro two points that I want to make. The first refer to Fonothing wbk Dr Ashby aid at tho begloning of bis speech and which no One has taken ap punico but which seems to me to be a funda mental point Ho concentrated qolto properly on the Hudent livmg at home, and ord, sou quito property that thert 1 always the pombillty-uod I think thally the reality-of some sort of tonton botween loyalty to the bomo uod loyalty to other communities to which the student may abo belong I think that that tonadon very often doe ezt but I do not think that it is a bad thing that it abould exit. Wo live in a world of tensions, and where there is no tendon there to do Ilfo. A man ho to work out his own mination between different loyaltles Tou do not do away with the tension by removing it geographially by taldng the man away from home at 8 yo to the rooraing Lod keeping him umy until II at night. You do not do imy with terloo you may disgulo it und perhaps prevent ha recognising it but it á all there. The difficulty which are from the odstoice of this tenslon is something which a not solved by the Ashby plan. I am not sure that it opght Dect prily to be solved in my lid way That bing me to the cond point about which I am uery I im uncut, about what I feel to be port of ·onslaught on the indusdual imtative of the gudent. The uvernty at which I was a student myself has a long tndition of people living in lodging Ln thuat xtise it to other like the Scottish unnettles 00 which to me ateat It was modeled It also has a long triction of people living at honde It did succeed however m producing a very active corporato life parthularly before it became to largo as it is no It keems to me that are one of the greatest problemas with which we have to deal. I feel that student ought to be left to do something for himsel and that students us a body ought to be left to do something for themselves and that the more vre organbc and Lay on thing for them tho more we try to guxle them into channels and run them along corndor the more danger tbert I feel that that is not the deal of a univarity and that vo sbould leavt wmething for the students to do on their own I have deliberately emphassed there two points because I am sure that there u something to be mid against wbut seems to be the popular elde. It is not so much u I have been saying but, once pobody ebe remed muing to ay it I thought that I had better bring it out a chearty w porabile Mr JH NICHOLSOY (HWD I think that Dr Ashby : idea u excellent if it recognised u second best a wecond bent for those who cannot do the best for lack of money and for other reuons and an intenm masure for those who som day can do the best but cannot do it yet Tbere un dus tinction here between the largo universty Institution and the anall one. The large college can dever do what I regard as best namely provide halls for the pat majority of those who do not live at boone but the mall mstitution can do to and it would be a puty of the Ashby model became the accepted type of provpion Therous room for a great deal more experiment I do not believe that even in halls the form of tifo and organisation which will finally be considered to be appropriate bu yet been attamed It is some bere between what used to be aled hotel rod i college Hostel is a word which I bopo that we shall dot time again, and I was worty to hear Dr Ashby we it On the other hand, I think that to etteropt to build balls like colleges but withoat the college organisation s pot only impractable but recalls the old proverb tbut the bent u the enemy of the good. I bebeve that there is a practicable plan which ort to these days will not be moduly expertavo compered with other types of building We have such a plan and have had it for some time I hope that it may toon bo realed.

·I mm 31 Wo ut hendy doing in a small place a good mony of tho thing about stuch DT Ashby has spoke. Yo keep the library open to 9pm we provido an evening Dal, have alcovo u the burry for Audy and hot where the students can read. This not bed on any theory we have the wo thing and mother und the is what has resulted glad to note that the great Univtraty of Birmingham has i coberent schomye on those linee und I would like to do it. When students come mto a hell which bros n vurden you Accept a certain respondbility for their conduct and MIDA That is one of the rouons why you receive then there Ou the other hand, you do not want to cump thou dovelopcent and you have somehow to strike the happy peon between too much diodpime in the old kne ud the idea that they should have us much freedom us if they were not hving in hall. The great difference between a hall and college dod not be only in the chancter of the building and the andorur dont A hall does not normally have dons, and the function if any of the member of the staff who live there tomas the students has not been atxfactonly solved. There is roon for a great deal more experiment I hope that where the realdential ideal practiable it will not be mpeded by the fact that a chenpa and low stigactory alternative is now available and has met with distinguished blewing Professor S D L (Quan: Onlaro) I did not intend to take part in this documon but I have been encouraged to do so by your kind tovitation by tho fact that this rout to be an afternoon for Queen. Univerzity and, though I belong to another one I feel that we should hold ou end up and because we have carned out at our university a mall experiment which may be of interest to the conference Soose your wo group of our students felt tbat they were mining some of the aspects of miveneity lifo which havo boen discussed the afternoon and they formed a co-operativo, sored , house converted it and attebliebed it us a reddenca That parimat sorted, I think, woven years ago and it be been pocceeded by others. We now hare three such co-oper ativas, two for men and ans for women In euch they have managed to persuado somebody to give the bottoin old hours no longer Deeded by its owner. They operate these place themselves and do aloxas all the work To the vay they obtain chaper Living and in many way more att factory lining than the godkents in lodging anget The experiment has been piccesful. They are careful to mis students from different ficulties and years and to avold any gation of exclusiveness ·Dr R. TUDHOPT (St Andrers) I have the privilege to be the arden of one of the man resdenons of St Andrews Univerity but my experience is not in the ancient tout bat in the setter College of Dandet. Not only have I had he experience of song ths reddence develop from its foundation, but in arler lifo I had the experience of being a student attending that college and living at home. I have been impressed by the fact that as the colego has grown in dio the place taken by the local student m xodent activitas hos diminisbed, and as the corporato spint of the readenco has grown the stodents living there have taken en idcretung part in reneral student activities, so that the leaders who formerly came from the local students DON come mainly trong tho stadents in residenci I think that the need for student accommodation varias not only according to the wo of the town but also according to the character of the town. In xoxo does with a largo middle-clan popalatlon, there are many people with all hamas who are Uling to add to their income by providing lodging for students in dty mach as Dundee the proportion of soch borse u amall comperrt with the number of bound where people have no opportunity of adding to thelr Incando by taking in lodgen, and our difficulty therefore, that of Anding stablo lodging for students In Universty College Hol Dundee of wbuch I am warden we have now 100 students in ruudence and by nert October We hope to have 190 but we aro only at the beginning of the problem of providing adequate accommodation for 211 who whah to be in rendence. Dr Ashby. proposals would be valuable in town pach us Drumdee, because thero world bo more hope of people in the rabarty welcoming the bed and breakfast type of student, umburdened by his care throughout the dry I too should bko to get rid of the word bostel and to substitute tho phn had of Icedeo.co In our bill of reddenco in Donder wo ero really trying in the first place, to provide a home for students coming from a distance and not merely farmnal tostitution. In terms of my appointment mry wlle i imodated with me in the admlaittve duties of my Ofico, ad this has proved nloable particularly in the use of Rodents from the Colonies and froin distance becauso mo can givo them a little mae horoo bfo than if I simply acted as tardes myself to an welcome them to our home which a separate but an integral part of the toddenco. I think that Dr Ashby s mggestion might be of Walte luton Rach Dandee.

·und 33 Profesor CIATTLEE (Secretary of the Coundation on the Plarmy of Unity Hall of Rodenco) I do not want to speak on behalf of the members of the comindo but purely personally though I koor that still adhere to what we waid m our sport as to halls of residence being the best way to deal with the problem. Dunng Our coordantion of the matter I thm that two words which we alinys had to mind regarding the provision of the hals of reudence Tero gradow digmfied becanye Wo hoped that Lomething would be doar wich rould influence the stodeats apart from their studies tn cocal and other way. Spouldog parmally and havnog istened to the band which lay croplans on the extension of the union and developunents along those lines, I still fod that they are not t mocond best but i third best and that 1 me ure potng to have anything It must be something which eroplasts from the polnt of view of the stodent the very partant reqmoment a room of is own or of her own that is something which with tho best will in the word, aannot be obtained from tho sodenta unton. Sunce being sociated with the common, I have tot been closely connected with Brittah omvertlos but huve had omber of your m Egypt, where I have seen the tremendous drudvantages of not bavng any kind of residence at U I um Dow wmodated with an experbrent by the Federatum of Blalayn Govenient which is concerned with a redential college ar what I prefer to call a residential place for 300 students from Malayı Il wybody had posted to me di mooth so that o might make halo redonco of aluminium I should have boen shocked to the core but now I feel, having seen wat roeddentual Lacilities an do in the Malaya Collogo at Kuby outside Liverpool I should change my vem This bon probably the worst ate that could be cboren and the buldings are the worst buildings, apart from the one fact that they provide city student with a room of his or ber own. I havo reen what the minit of the students in th place whero they an cotro tacether or stop privately to their own rooms at will, and whero the staff and stodents can talk together and bars the advantages of evening conference I should thacfore like to emphasise the deainability of providing real residential accommodation for overdty Rodents whaeva it is possible to do so to though the buldingi urd not what we would like them to be und Ward they ard not the kod of building mudroated in our report The college at Kirkty vus ciginally . kostel for peoplo volding In Adling factory abh monftlog factory outodo Lhttpool. The rooms are rery small only about 10 by 9 feet, ·34 all of them i hutments. Originally I bebeyt thret people wwed one room each sleeping in it for right bours during the treat four There were no amemties in the ordinary sease of the word at all yet these bruldmgı have bect turned into something which has already in less than £ Year i character und pint about it which come largely from the fact that those students though their buitounding ate not good and getting greater advantages than if they were living in lodging o could only come togother in knall room which they would havo to lare in the evening, in the stodents union. They have e room of their own where they can keep ther personal poncarons and tbeir books and that mato all the difference to the way in which they work I feel, therefore, that the animum hall of roadence is the second bett The third bat may be the extendom of the union, but I still think that frost best u the ball of residenco u propoved in the report of the conmignon Dr H H LUCAS (Aberduan) I have been wurden at Hull, and I was a member of tbe communion on halls of reedence I too hope that the case with which arrangements for Audents in a non-resdental house can be organised will not lead us to abandon the idea of the residential system altogether On the other hand I feel that there is room for both these ways of solving the problems I am opposed to alumnatum balls of reedence but I am not opposed to wooden I ras warden of a wooden ene It was a very good experiment and I believe that the students got a lot out of it I not that I did The diadvantage of the alunnindum ono that it lasts too long If you are goldt to build for a long then you abould bould properly but for a short til do it does not matter to much The obvious nalogy which mggests itself for the type of LITTmeat which we have been considering to-day to that of the German universito end I understand, some of the Sandlmarian and Amerxan ones I believe that we have something to learn from these placer. For one thlog it to important that thero should be keveral in tho unlittaty I am opposed to ono CDOTUKas extension of the students union I think that the German syutem of the corporation house thom that it 1 pot docery to have a warden in the mense in which we understand it now in poche place though It is important to do father more than the Ciemos bure done to stocate members of the staff wth mach botne Apother thing which we might leern from the Germans the way in which the former students of the corporation continue to remain ixorated with the botue In most German universities they larreh papport the student corpora ·35 tion house. That is a bodge which is almost as inportant, to my mind, u the bodge between stodents ud staff Fally I diagree with a formar peaks in that I feel it is csontal for the metabers to dine together from time to throo or at least to have come land of collation together The common to its not made a recommendation that hells of Tendence should be able to provide mocals for many more than the number of reddent students It important that they thould be able to eat md drink together I kao of ono endent university whicro recently when the supply of coffee broke down tomponuoly m the staff common room the staff comt. room cond to add a rockety for the duration of the period when thero w no coffee. Profesor D G CHRISTOPHERSON (Land's) Other speakers have referred to ther prevwas experience to pertups I may mention that I was formerly burner of a Cambodge collego with an endowment income of very much len than £50,000 I should like to mupport strongly wat Di Humphreys ald about the value to the student of the tuk of administering tho unlon cor any other organisation with wbich bo be usociated and it pans to me that inevitably an organisation which coasts of veral parts os better from that point of view the u doglo large m.son Very few students can take a bug pert in the organdation of a puglo largo timon, bat if thoro uro many organisations an appreciable proportion of the students an bavo that Hnd of experience Tbao is another room for having not one organisatxon but overal It often yppan that that are very marked Hollaritia between the Ordord and Cambodge collages, but it seems to me that the differences between them uro moet u important us if not more important than their Antartiet One of the great sources of strength is that they can all be different they are all of governing and therefoto tbey are able to etaphoose thoroupects of university Life which appeal to there to particular It sous to me that it be very important feature whether we have halls which 20 truly redential or whether we have Ashby whilch are us it were organimatoms Hee a hall of residence tn every way oncept that the students do not deep there, that Wo aboud allow puch organkstions to develop uang their on line to different nyt and to relact their own students, lowing their ow character and on the wbolo trymy to continue over a long period of time the particular tradition and character tablo to a particular hod of undergraduate. I do not for a moment prest that we should try to agregate all undergraduates of particular case in a particular ball, but I think that should try to develop individual charact ·10 ur halls, and abo in our cube or whatever we call the type of hall in which the xodents have no sleeport accommodation If we are to do that we must gru e great pots of self-government to the halls themselves. We must try to ging them as much self-government as pouble in finaal matters und, what eren more important give them complete self-gorement deading what mdegnduto shall belong to what hall, and in particular that seruor members shall belong to *hat hau. We have started this in a modest way in Leedo Our experlenco us not yet long enough to say how it will work, but one of the problems which face u to decide bow we are gomy to find in armation which will couble the halls to havo character which they can dovelop Ore many genen thods and which is not dependent on the particular personality bonerer good, of an individual warden Profesor R 4 MORTOX (Loter pore) A Chairman of the Halls of Rendence Committee at Liverpool I should ho to av that some of us would feel a little angiet if something akin to the American fraternity houses were to urte Des aperiments and I see more than a littlo tendency for movement in that direction. I do not think, trom my apience at Liverpool that the students bomen ard bearly a bad as they have been painted I think that many students bave u room of tbeir own at home and an entertain tbelr friends at bonne and can have crew to the universty library for 48 to 50 weeks in the year instead of yo We must in farmness recognise that the doc contruty L lo some are doing things which other university cannot do Students do come to the animatie, inddentally to do come cork, and they get a room of their own in a reudential hall which I do not think that they could get to quito the some way in bleak additional kind of union. We hard our university Hbraries open for many boun, and the students can use them in tam up to 9.30 pm. aod 3pm in action. In a univerity hall of residence there is the posibilty of contact between mature mond and an immature mind, Whereas if we atend the prinaple of entore roll.goremment by students to a Der type of stodents union rt are furthering the sytem of One immature miod acting on another imraaturo mind. Ve sbould be throwme sotmething away there. I think that a great deal can be done very quietly by one skilful person acting as a student rethire officer who finds out those Hudents who ought to be in ball because of poculuar personal drconstance and those wbo should be helped to find the right Wod of lodymys A xodent Welfare officer an to ·37 tho mivendty that certam places wrich offer Lodging 40 totaly mortable, and e unul welfare officer can get pooplo to open thar doors to student sto trould not take lodgens in the ordmary my od the student con than got what som to me vital a room of his own. Dr IF HUMPHLETI in replying to the discundon old As ro bare only fro minuto botereen in which to reply I should dmply like to etapbasso that I 4T with all those speakers who have underlined the importance to a student of having room of his own. Ho best room of his own In Lodging, but he wants more than that ho wants the chance of contact with other students and with stat. The latter talar mano difficult than tho farmer Worro trying en opark ment in Birmingham to do that on the imas which I indicated. but it be much more difficult in a ball of reudence in a dex unranty than it is in an Oxford of Cambodge collogo, wbero the staff ato u mach a part of the calego u tho students are. That b why they are the idea to which we all uptre but they Aro very expensive Dr C Am roplying to the dischabon, sed I should liko to emphause what I wild at the beginning, that the whole of this dicindon ts relevant only to tho university which no prospect of accommodating Audents in halls af reddance. I mo that we all tako it for granted that the ball of redded.co b the best solution. If I wanted ordon.co of that, and of tho fact that the architecturo does not matter I should and it in the Univenty of Boun, bare too students hved in an att nud shelter with no wodows and wharo l the ur had to be pumped in If the pumps falled the students would have muffocated yet the place had to most ertha adinary splitt. We should not admit that loy now openment an replace reodance of residence 3 raly practable but If It is coming only for the children who are born m 1980 we stul bare twelve generations of 34,000 students in there dvic umrveretlas for whom wone hand of mterim unangements mot be made I was delighted that Mr Beckett And what he did, becam I do not want you to think that the Queen a Urustraty has party Hoe om thu pobject Oun ki univerpty which bu pecular problems which can only be solved by some special focal antingement I wish to register grung diegreement bovered with the Rxration that ( an cerironment for the student) home tre vot o bad afta It would be into esting to get for some of three dric amrautla the Hod of Information obtained for one big Dominion torrent from which it appeared that two-fifths of the gudents who ·38 hved at botte had bedrooms of their own and les than coe fifth ever did therr ordinary work alone in roon and that was to a country where there is no need to have fres for px months in the year It oposable that there ard many places where the student hu e root of his own at home and can a en entertud mit but I use people who belleve that most students have the facilities to look at student Bleu their own ato What erqine I have made in Industrial oto have removed trora me the hungon that there are many homes m which you could throw a party and not put a great strain on the family and in which you could work without there being a young brother or ustet repeating French homework in the wme room because it is the only room in the bome with a fire That may not happen in the South, wbero you are more delined but it does happen to the North where, after all a good many rudenta Live I apologne for the we of the word hostel I agree that It is an ofic:AVO word. In retum l ak you to ternove the deplorable label from the plan which has been discussed this afternoon for two reasons ODOB to five personal embarrement to one of your colleagues, and the other to that if you once put a label on a plan it lower its debility Many of the speakers have made it clear that each untverdiy has to solve this problem in its own way and to make divti Gences from a plan is much harder than to invent womething Come umventirs have already tried non redential halls, and it is only a modifianon of that Idea which I would advocate for the nine dvic univerzita, The CHAIRMAX I thould like to thank Dr Ashby and DT Humphreys very famly lodred for hotrododng thu discumon ·39 SECOND SESSION SATOYDAY Young DIR IJTH SUCCESS AND FAILURE AT THE UNIVERSITY Cum F TH. FLITCHER, MA D.Lm. D Prodomor of French, Univerpty of Liverpool and Imediate Pa Preldent, Asocution of Univeraty Taucher The followry do od tablos cers aroulded prior to the Comic A. Notes for Address by Str ALTIADER CARR SAUNDEN. Title of this decanom lholts it to oTnts within the univerkty and while any judgment of accous or fahro at the miversity depends on different kinds of evidence there » only one quantitative text-the degree cumination. Universities kro aritclood for nating money by Kelecting people for adult who eventually tail and they should have an answer to thos. How often doanstadent leave the univernty wthoat taking a degree? In the case of London there are marked differences in the fahro rato u between different camiontion and its not oury to suggest reason for this. Erating analymes of results are mostly directed to the part records of accene rather than to the trailwa Amall and rough Ample of results at the London School of Economia may help little towards the central problem -- how far are those who fail at oontratu fulues in otber respects? In 1949. 305 Audents were admitted to read lor A SC (Econ) of these 107 at far und obtained the degree to 1982 39 had withdrawn from thb course for various rouma not accounted u failure the rest (63) fated at todinations at the Kvel annoul mes and were not reedmutted, only 1 per cent. in fact filmg at the fol examination Stady of the records at catrace of the fuling students and of the performance at Collections and theto taton reporu shown that the falling students were not in evidena u be waket Audents an entry but that their walmen wu dla corad ourly in their university area The moments made us the result of interes before entry room to bare ferd predictive wulue for later examination resulta Palemor anon • paper The Art of Person duly makes it der The fore I Stinkt VIX Ne u Sr 199 Brita Asockatoo for the Atractokent of Boyce ) ·40 that there are not yet any psychological tests which iſ added to the ordinary atnnce comunation, could be relied upon to nume markedly the predictive value of the whole tat in relation to foture radenc performance. The problem to receiving attention at the universities but it is obvious thet methods of relection can be mproved only sorry Theo is carly some pontive correlation betwoen anumina ton performance and acces in other spheres the reasons far ballore need study-most of the fallures er not poocena other respects but are people conspicuous m the student body who are unable to cope with things in general. Failure at umveraty examintons may be due to lailure to discover how to coach themselves in students who were couched to a certam level at school there is a danger that muverite may be tempted to undertake the tu of coaching to order to reduce the failure rate The evidence suggests that univerutes do not often go WTORY when they tum a student out for failure but prezent ophtraty practice may be defectire in permitting a certain clag of successful student to take bish borows without getting full advantage of other opportunities for intellectual develop ment. 4 B Notes for Addren by Professor Sir JAVES LLARMOXTH. L. Difficulty raped by title. What is Accessfm medical student? So many different outlets for ndouate that stodent masurablo only by the not infallibio crimination system Curricula differ-lowbat untvtraty? Ultimato riccoes in medical profespon depends on post graduate year 11. Jy view of wat medical course would bring to student - (*) Ability to atnct the danificant from mug of orkdence (5) Abilty to apply theoretical knowledge to anfamiliar dations. (c) lloral courage to act with sense of urgency in emergencies (4) Somo famillenty nith bopes and fans of those of diferent outlook or different chal da

·NII Dovrede futuro in student and the trouble with
many of these dictions u that people aro mwilog to ay
the obvious)
() Enorgh intelligoce-avenge beta * mough
(6) Enough industry
(c) Ramoblo health
() Another but not over-ndmg interest
IV Unmueble
(.) In medicino yamg
(6) Too much spurbons personality
V y accderc fer?
In early youn (data frotan Professor Sir Syriney Smuth)
(a) Unfamilarity with methods of betraction.
(6) Unfamllianty with mulico
(c) Lack of intelligence or lack of industry
Mental or physical II-bealth
In later yean (data from Profesor Str Sydney Smith)
(a) Latent wala tn chancter - led ustny*
() Over-ridmg interests for extracurricular activitia
(c) Over-dding interests within medicine.
(1) Again mental or physical acts.
() Wrong sort of teaching for particular care
Rdatice failure of really able boy
VI Grauliscanu -
() Soccen u practitioner depepela more on couple of
taucher than on marka.
(5) All ultimate soccer more dependent on postgraduato
training
(c) Same consideratio apply to both kerto
(Mt 11 - 2 41 4h)

·Unirekty of Edinburgh First Professional Examination Pacotin ol fahr bered on instanco (1) OUI Cuban You Pyntes Botany Chwustry Zoology 330 30.8 PRE VAR 1933 1935 1937 1935 1999 JI! +05 183 to 69 8.6 7.6 120 to-3 17.0 174 11.3 10.6 to. 9.0 WAR 1940 194 1940 1943 1944 1945 7-0 2.8 6.0 ag ISO 190 190 I 13-7 13 1 110 9.5 #3 9.6 9-7 10.0 17.0 19-3 1.5 37 173 1947 9.3 10 9 I1.0 19-7 6-7 U) No Canculan POST WAR 1949 1950 1931 053 163 11 3 19-3 18 70 13.0 14) 6.6 13.6 6.6 12 11.9 14 3 to 3 19.6 Compartoon of the percentage of falures in the Profesional Euminatiors dormg the periods 1930–1938 and 1944-1945. There statistics are based on the results of the main caminations IS Prof Prof Final PI Pex I Proj 1930 1971 1944 61.1% 133 % 129% 16 384 3710 31.8% 90 8 1-3 164 1960 مرور 1936 ANT 41.3% 13-3% 01 34.1% 447% 41 7% 32.8% 70 33 1944 1943 100 047 1940 w 110 30.1% 17.0% 4.3% 173X 409 1339 t 31.1 19.0 322 3463 140 14.0 110 1463 11.0% 1330 37-4 3-5 4735 34% 23 % 1949 19yo TOI 1991 21% 47-4% 91% 44.3% 10 11.6 17 1 111 ·Fal Profesional Eamnation thum (I) the total percentage of failure und (2) percentage of failure of gudents #ho had not failed to Any of the prostoru Proladonel Enammanons. Gothen Yn (1) 1934 1998 143 3.69 14.0 1992 3.0 tonn 940 194) 1940 990 1931 195 10,0 126 71 The CAIRKAN Du Fouter bas just told me that we have officially until 13 30 for our dimidon Thunt is a very short tiroo for what ba very long theme, and so I am no you will want to get down to brine quickly o pouble As our Charman yesterday afternoon wd, thy conference has toally been pretty fortunate to its opening speaker. I o puro you will agree that that u conspicuotaly the curo to-day and, consequently one of the normal function of the churman that of mtroducing the speakerb pot only completely mapamous on this occasion bat would be, perhapo Oren Impertinent Horove thero were two points of a foren duncter that I thought I might make in the few nutrutos that I had take The first to that, since I am here in the pedty of a former President of the Apociation of Unrelty Toucher, I should Hlo to a pred the attaction of my Anoctatoo at being once again to closely urocated in the organlation of tbla conference. There are, I know a number of people, cun I moy Own organation, who became to do not attempt to maka policy or take decisions a phleb-sounding relations think wout a car and other brititution but I think the majority of tyree that it has proved very nimble Institution. It docebo ure studied faroonde zod very often muchos condatlas rota bero are put into practica One rather totauting desight on the general lateret that htulen la our decision is the wodd de demand for the printed record of our proceeding. This, D. Faster tets me, ·u gratifying to the point of embernument. "Yo cannot really fuld all the demands once upon 113 The second paint that I should Hke to make that po recta to be peste through e pedod I hope purely temporary to which education to being spoken of almost achodvely in terms of retrenchment There are to be reductions in the number of murds bete reduction in the amount of awurds there curtalment of building programma, cats in other programma * reduction oven i stofis, at iny nte to the atent of pot Any vacando id so on It dearly bebove all sections of the academic world to stand together at any time and in particular at a time like this and it seems to me that this conferenco 1 valble demonstration of the unity and solidarity of the acadeindc world. That is all I have to say except perhape, one final word. I wao xrock yesterday by the initiative and eloquence of our colleagues from north of the Border and also by the fact that three and I originally thought four of the leadios speakers to-day were alther Scoto or bad close Scottish aiinitas over breakfast this morning I moved to lynal expression With your permlulon, I will read the rezults of my mspiration. It depends, I am afrud, upon the tact of Sur Alounder being a Scot, but he tell me be bo pot which a rather a paty! It also depends upon the fact that three of our speaken have achieved tho bonour of kohthood. As when the dealing Northern Lights Set the dark heaven in a blazo So may the light from Scottish Knights Dispel the nurk of English days! That w quite cough, perhape and I will call upon our fint speaker Str Alerander Carr Saunders, to open tho dlacion ShI ALEXANDER CARE-SAUNDER ХА. LLD D D D.Lt TBA Director London School of Economa od Political Science University of London The title of this discardon, "Success und failurt at the univer sity Iloit it to events within the univeraty ft achoda for enample the relation between pecormance at the univeráty and performance in later life There would be general Tetmint, I imagine among those attending this conference that thi jodgment whether a podent has been a face or failure at a universty * based on many different Hods of cvidence, box for he has matured in character how far ho bas broadened and deepoved his interests ud how far bo bus acquired an understanding of me and thing But of all the various Words of relevant evidence there be quantitativo magrement of oly ope mamely access or failure to thoso ·cuminations upon the result of which a degizo wanded. Not to get a decide u indaputably one band of failuro onlronto only admit to degree conna tbox who un judged likely to get a degree and the person and authodties who give financial Apport to xodents mtandmg to work for derico only do so when they have a dmllor expectation propore to begin by somo reference to thu God of tathero, first, because u I have mrd, there and figures, and, secondly beano fullure of this dod is attractmg the attention of thoro who give fimandal opport to students at tmierutie. It pointed out that universtio ero free to relect ury applicant for admision whomo quifications ure not in their opinion adequate it u wid that the fulard rate would bo rodniced if unterstie selected better it is taken for gimted that tho Foppat given to a student who fails sa waste of money and it u condoded that the unireretles aro roponeble for the Weste I think that to all thn the verntres should havo ome considered immer The facts relevant to this disconon ero those relating to cnmmation flurdu result of which a tudent laves um veruty without a degree There facts are not easily accenlble With the montance of Dr Henderson tbc Aademic Registrar of the Uniteaty of Loodon I have been able to study porno figures for London These figures Allow largo differences in the falur nte v between different wminat it dot unhely that the figure for other universities would show the amo. It is not easy I food, to auggest any OBVODS ciplautim of these differences, wd it to Dory to bear in mind that to some extent the falling andidates may not form a homogenoow das. It is deur I think that in any aux more walyes of fallout vould bo repaying wisting analy s mostly directed to rocce as for instance to the provions records of andidates who get first-clou hobOUTS or otbere do well In the abecnico of favestigations of this kind I proporc to ole you to allow me to give some results of an admittodly very small and royh analysis made for de at the London School of Economia As you will see this natyrl wu nade with the object of probing Ilttle may towards the ceutral problem, • I take it to be of this documglon-namely bow for those bo lallat emamidabong ure failures otbet turpecta In 1919. 305 full time students acte admitted to the London School of Econonta to rad for the degree of BSc (Econ.) It is three years coure At the end of the first year tbcne gudents all took a test called Collections imposed by the School and not by the Unistaty at the end of the scood year como Part I of the anal cerpination and at the end of ibo third sear Part II Ically all the 305 kodrats should o ·16 havo sat for and gamed the degree in 1952 In fact 207 dd to Of the 98 who did not, 35 were not fulures in the sense in which that term us wed here they transferred to other courses, withdia for personal reasons or can be accounted for in similar waya 63 fuled etber at Collections and were refused roadınlapon by the School or at Part I or at Part II Only 2 per cent did in fact ful at Put II at the end of three yean, and most of the elimination therefore took place pot later than the end of the second year In order to throw light on the reasons for failure the records at entrunco of tho fullng students were carefully examined —that to the records of their perfondences at the higher Khool certificate examination or its equivalent and at the entrosxe cuination set by the School itself. These per formances were claxofled into three group or good Bar fa und C or ratha donbtful Ibeir records were amilarly downfied as Judged by then performance at Collections and by their tutor reports. The results were, at least to mo mteresting At entrance 41 per cent of the failing students were clased A 48 per cent B and II per cent. c. The evidence from Collection and tutors reports received about tbo and of tbe first year coxacidad Almost exactly 3 per cent. were clamed A at that poont 30 per cent werc B and 65 per cent were C Thus show that the filmng students were not on the evidence of entry texts the weakest students if we had refused to accept those who did keegt vel m the entrance tests we should not have dopo much to reduce the number of failure. It also show that the header of theme students nu in large measure dancovered early in their univarity careen by two Independent pieces of evidence-I mean their marks in Collections and their taton report. The resca somno points of interest the first of which relata to entnunce testu Oa thu matter I propose to my littlo because it has been moch documed bot perhaps I might say something based on our esperlenco at the School From our camperence at the School we have one piece of evidence To secure entrance to the School our candidata were pubmitted to an entrance examination through which they were graded They prero aloo Interviewed (w i rosult of which they were canjiled as acceptable or to be rejected) and we took into account the marts which they obtamed at the school certibaate or monedeste examinations through which they qaallbed for entry on the degree course. When tho realta of thu corabied womt at entrance ore correlated with the results of ananimations taken later it u shown that they have little predictive value os regards obsequent cumination resulte ·17 The very interesting descumon in Professor Vampon s rocaut Peper on Tbe ponent of Perkuality + which tako account of all the traible evidence on th: matter ibon that our result is not out of accord with this map of cydence. Professor Verdon s paper also make it clar that there and us yet no paychaloglal tests which if added to the ordmary cathnee tats, could be relied opon to nur markedly tho predictive vloe of the whole team relation to futuro tadania performance. If this is the universities have an answer to their anties wory that selection could und ought to be bnprored at 0000 no doubt methods of selection will be proved as time goes om, but it seems that the improvement an only be slow The voiversitla mght, I think bo MOTO ready to defend their cho than they are and to pomt to the numerous tivestigations into und dascussions of trance tests. I know this is a very strommary reference to an important problem but it w roceiving much attention und I want to pus on to other matters which are les discussed What sort of people are there fohura ? Here I have to rely on my admittedly very whetchy prestigatamu remfaced by such Impre oos as I have op through perion of univcopty life In my ample there * httle cadence that I health difficult personal arcumstances or dehberate Idleness are important calls of failure Vor - there evidence of excele carpenditurt of time on guma, dubs und such-HLO activities Sly general impression is that the latures are people who are conspicuous in the student body nther hout ind, m generul pot coping with thing Fow of then were definitely mccandal s judged by citer obot than by performance at examinations and they semed in tho man to be getting la out of wireruty hfe than the average student. The pot to my that they got nothing but in order to joslly their maintenance at i univtraty in spite of cuummation failure it would be accomary to sbow that they were gaining more than if they had paned their tuo daudbero. I might add that the still prenent notion that crammation fulluro i aften Locompanied by access of other bodo probally derived from koorledge of the former conditions of thing at the older miverdties which have pamed amy thero uod have not edited at the reset meta-I mean tbo presence of a body of Lirely students who got a lot out of the midty bat had to cart tether they got degree or not. Let me now turn my attention for a moment to the other cod of the malo od uhat sort of people are those who do best at ourinations Hero I have to rely on mat imprendono baying made no special oberrations on my own students. I am Incided to spent that has where high charmation S# 39.

·48 access judged by foret-class honour goas with little evidence of preces elsewhere in universty life ure mond common than cases where examination failurt goes with gocct dowhere We all know those cases where a student greduntos with fmt-class bonoun and seans to buvo got Httlo alte oat of his DIVEIRty career At tho same time there clearly some positive correlation between cumination per formance and success in other spheres games acuded, about which I shall say word in a moment-buat this is only to be expected, for it u the students with good mental capacity who have it in there to den and deepen their loterests wtulo worlang for their degree Reverting to the fallures it worth whillo to ask foro directly than I have yet done why they fail In my sample mediocre performance at entrance tests uppens to be of bitlo importanco ha ase of failure. I should my that m the mmplo a special factor may account for some failure few of these people had studied at school the object which they took up at the univerpty and posibly some of them were unfitted to study th: Dow mbject or found it little to their tasto But what about the other the majonty of the failures ? In univernty drcla vanou teplanations are currently offered. It is raud that at school come populls are wom ont bry examination pressure that others have not got it in them to develop any further I em tomehat dublous about there theories and muggestions To tne a more interesting explana tion is that there people get along at school where they uro couched dolled groot-fed or crammed but fall when called upon to crercise Imtiative at the unrverdty Those who say this are I believe on the track of an explanation which partially accommts for the facts, but in putting it forward in the way they do not quite hit the mark. It ha true that students at aniverpties are asked to work in a way that is different from the practice in schools but they kto wldom asked to work to the way that is often arned. Work at a univerdty is described as introducing a student to a field philosophy history of literaturo us it may bo-and providing him with a map a compan and help in oriconinging him to explore That may be the ideal but is not tho practice u I know it (I should partups may in my limited PETIT.CO of the newer unventies in which I have served) At least in tho first year or the first two years of a degree couro The picturo 1 nther that of obligation to study a number of objects in the BSc (Econ) zumination there aro niso mbjects in the frut two yeen) As to the difference betreca chool and unrant I will put it the way that at the farmer ho baremmed, while at the latter be l apposed to do the far him Let me my at once that I ita using exagger ·I am stod language which I could not defend for a moment perely patting it in that way in order to make my pant in Let me aloo my that to those whools which ochow manego to at their orth-farm papils from the Tl-effects of the to me) cctvt requirements of performanco at the General Certificate of Education, work dooc which b for pearer the universety Hal than at the toivtraty Itroll. Pongo to a univerty may mdeed mean retrogression m methods of woch. If thu s at all the fallare at university examinations is bot so much failure in general Initiative, o fallure to discover how to coech opereff And the picturo I gato marter of the fallures b the pacture of just sach poopia. Heroin, I think, lies a danger for arranties. Troubled by tho number of fallures, and unable to reduce the number by improving entrance tests they may resort to taking on the task of couchmg In this way they might poh a dng e lew moro students through cuminations. I four that this may already be happenmg iod w far o ft to, it clently a departure from right onverty practice. Again, if this is at all tro a stricter adherence to what - admittedly rigtit un venity practico would man #ill moro fallura Thus ts a fact which in my opinion mitat bo faced. It may be pouble by ose method or another to train all or Deurly all those who can pre umiverkty entrance tests (provided they keep in bealth and do not idle) to sundard rufbaot to muy the camined at the Finals Enminton But the proportion of those who pass thoso entrance tests and can then go on to work fxccessfully in the true university manner may be le than cuently supposed Vay I now try to dn, there remarks together Of tho Vatroos kunds of success at universities one and apartnamely soccer to sports and games By this I do not men that it is a kind of soccer to be despised very far from it. All I mean to that there no reuon for expecting acces to thus spbere to be correlated with other forms of arco depend the u it does on boddy gifts Other forms of succes in university, depend on mental afts coupled with titativo, and one is entitled to expect und hope for a higher correlation bet een ull the vinou Hnds of pxces than to in fact tho cuse. As thing ure the student with a good bralo who lado any esploring interest, do-ranging curiodty or fritlativo may do very well in taminations the more videly gifted stodent may and not mirepikatly does turn komewhat away from modemse #ody and to docs only moderately well i cuminations, ar ko well than bo might do because the stody demanded of hm requires Over-ctopluss on the apodty for absorption and fails to stily ble instinct for Experience and cuplantion.

·52 Tert, I should ay that ho must be able to examine, and perhaps to accept contrary options to his or quite calmly something which is rather more difficult than it may appear to be. I should my that he had to be taught that it is a very precious thing to recognise the limitations of hos own know Lodge I should abo my that be bad to be tanght to recognbo boper, faan und upin tons on the part of those of a chfferent outlook or a different social clasif you do not like the phrano diffcrent social class I will substituto different environment from his ow. The older I get, the more I od ock peoplo u nthar tsolated, ubo demand sympathy Sickness sean to wwbate them from their fellow, uit doos with animals. The medial student must be taught to enter into that world of their own which shall people produce Lastly there should be another dediablo quality to be tested in the final examination which unlike the previous examinations which are academic in standard, na avic duty on the part of the arunners I should liko to se developed in the medical student the ability to initiate and carry through plan of action which revolves not only profendonul consider ations but personal considerations as well In medicinoat least, in the practice of medicine in every other form of human activity of wbuch I am aware the key to access the timing of action. I would remind you of the Ayong of Shaws Primo Slinster m The Apple Carl that One man who has a mind and low it an always beat the men who havent and dont It is that sort of well-confidence that one labor to see in the best products of a medical school Should the boy be a medical xodent at all ? I must confere I think that umivernties pay too much attention to trying to get the perfect entrant Thero a megocent piece of Churchlliana fn one of the appendices to los latest volumo To nast on perfection spela paralymus I commend that to the people wbo try to frapore standards which are too high opod thote about to enter the curriculum of medicine. I should ay a boy ought to be a medial student it be honestly feels he has a call to medicine and has chosen medial aureer of his own valtion With reference to intell- Fenice, good bete has enough intelligence to be a good doctor Very clever people do not really understand what goes on to the monde, or do not understand tho bopar and fears of people who are much less intelligent than they art, and they are apt to get impatient with them, and impatient f the log thing doctor aboud be. He should have enough industry and he should lart enough peroverance for which latter I do not know u tant One of the maddest thing in metine ba the intelligent boy without ·33 Industry but patap oven modder the todustrious boy without ntelligence. I would agree with Samaco Inght that when we try to Donld our product mo sbould dot try to choose the best bat should try to ardude the worst. I hope for a groat daal from the report forthcoming from Sur Freded Bartlett, of Cambridge on the problem The moderal Rodent should have ubother interest or other interacts which belp to keep bun auto become the mpact of done on one of the young people onther namo dredful than one thinki. I bebere, too that he should havo TOXonblo health, beczono certam periode d his cumcolom -- not the whalo of it-malo pome demand on his phytal rodontoh I was interested to be that Cecil Rbodas, who died very young asowed us the qualities for his cholar--porteraduate scbolos it to troc-scholarship, u to four-tenthu bratohty * to two-tonthe tact and landeturp us to two-tentha and untuotos rectitude u to to-teaths. Ho abould not be a medical student if he ta medical sodent yanst his will sometimo pareata push boys into modiade. He bould not be mafcal student of bo has pre-determined what bon going to do with the rest of his life metimo a boy comes along determined to be a cuttor As persoality somewhat immature, which u all too common in the medial student. He should not be a metal student If we personality b flostry-ho will tend to the newer Lod perhaps tmproven remedies if beba a colourlem pornoohty about which she Alesandet pole But I do not mean to concludo pooplo with blautre personalities especially in relation to reach, because I have mad before in thu bull It is quito true that good recerch often goes with a certain sluttle of character Wo get all these typer ni medlane and we must ask why como of them ful. I am indebted to our Dean Sir Sydney Smith, for tho data printed on pega ea and 43. In the fint yar students ful partly became they are on the whole I think, scholastically be able. They fail, us Str Alamander maid in the air of arts, bean they may be unfamiliar with metboda of Instraction but, ato qt, in mediase the first van ure lanały factual perhaps a little too factual so that Hudents do not realise the need to change their method of approach. Lord David Cecil and that educatioo was badder and not an salator I think the menta may hard. runr mining here. The accond tablo on page 42 Mostrates the platitude that upalence touches the older #poets get and the part entration they at, the better they get on Romeror it to un atraordinary thip_this to a pocot about which I would ·drsagree with - Aleuander--that in the first rear la medicino at least if the teacher do not know who are going to get on, the students Inors the students will tell you who ut fung to be mucenial The student maxtim fuls because he is unfamiliar with bu miheu The unit itself mar bo strange to a boy it may be and qute often s strange to a boy who come from the dont yr from an Aland or from a poor bort to cuter int the workedar corld itxit, quite apart from the apretat urroundings He may be in a stranke mall mixeu These are the bort bo benefit by staying in hostels early in their universis carter if the banged ther General di men Students fail because of lack of smfficient Intelligence-at least in medicine although apparently not to artu. They fall because of lack of indoktry that b meetimes so in the cas of the clerer bon, bo funds the elementary type of deco demanded in medicme too easy he may have done most of it at school Boys abo fall-I think this posibly in extraordinarls maportant thing beau they come to do medlane at an extremely sensitivt turbulent of in their mental make-up They are really not grown up they are STUFny up and the impact of medicine-und ometimes the excenare impact, because they will try to go into hospitals and we operation and so on-often too much for these boys They can be helped by a wise paychulatnat provlded that the porchatrot us abo awoe phyudan and preferably a man of the word It is sometimes and that what affects there boy is the a of the angle enaminaton It that to o I think it is pot a bad thing so often in after ble they will have to meet aken it they go out into practice and I they cannot meet les oportant arises curly or after some little training then thoy minst pot adopt the profesdon of mediene or at least, the practice of medicine In the later years the ignorant and the lary abould havo been climinated There is a certain goall proportion of students who uro but is colloqobally called led istny in late student Hfc. I think it is better that these thould transfer their actintas to some other profesion or poedbly to como other faculty It taposable to over-kentimentals medicine, but, without being kotimental about it, I would my that there is aboolutely do acme for hering in i den bo i university boy or a #bo is not doing hu or her bent. That is a duty which they have to their fellor men. I bould bare not the last compunction in expelling ope who was not doing his or bet best Sometimna re find that over laterat in extn-curricular ·activities both hade and outtide the contraty is bampering z boy's career That never 1 suitcent anse for peme who she to be doctor Frequently re find that boys Impelled to study some speculty o to moko esponent to bouto speaal technique which has attracted him during hu course and be may ipend w much time on this that be fails to obectve the elementary fortpahty of getting through pomo ample exaration These boy can be brocht back to Them by talk with the profesor of the Rubject of the doon. There are mental apets m later student ho of a rather Hicrant tart because the gudents are los adolecent and me find that the most important of these and matters of BI und quito unrestrained religious fervour un almost evtralbat fervous A good psychiatrhat who also a good phys dan will doul with these matters metusfuctorily a bad peychlatt merely goes on rupplymg students with specions excuses for falling in crumination Ono pometimes finds that a boy u onfitted to ha medial wchool. There are largo und mall school, there are different types of teaching and thoro ero different types of teaches There is mordething to this but it pot always a good ecco for barbaro We bavo recently bad a spute of lon pepen in the medical joomals telling is where we are at fult in our medical councula bat I read those with some cynichan becaus I obnove that these papon ero watten by profctrons who are walls the highly mocentul products of the systems they tre docryrap The figures for the fuel ermination which show the toccer and failure of medical school uro contained in the table on peare 43 where you will see to caluran 1 the proportion of students who have not failed in any of the previon profeudonal criminations, and that, of coure to quito anal This means that, gtven ability of a resovablo mat id Industry the roadcal course does not prekat any insoperable dificulties to the average boy I do thhuk It to very important in medicine and I think it is our thing that we bil to do in medical schools to talco account of the addir failure of the rrully erceptional boy who ochotmo And that irreprochable ambition of the crative pirit not only falb to find an outlet but couronally by alrpost #ded by the hundrume of some of the material with which they have to make themselves acquainted. That an only bo pat ryut by fatroducing an honoun group in medical schools-pertapa pot in all but certainly m vom - and that might apply palaps, mare particularly to thor who are attracted to proclaical Rabjecti I obed a ray able joung woman what she thought of the poetion of women student regards forces of fulur iod ·h wud lihat gors for a man goes for a woman 3dy personal view is that there are probably too many women in i diune and that some of the should be encouraged to ke up some brio b of the model xvices which would give them an outlet for their qmte proper wish to serve their Tellor creatures I »um up now buymg that I should uko to se moro dne for the alphas in medicina I should like to see tho incompetente ruthlcoly shed because of their respondblbties recognised in the univenties that if a man a going to practure medicine atberu a general practitioner of H coomltant bra fuccen depends much more on what he remembers hb chutal teachen doing then on any factual instruction ho may have received from them. This is perhaps, the biggest pount of a 1t 1 & polat o large that I commend it to you for separato consdenton at some futuro date. The CHAIRMAN Before throwing the ribject open to dcmon, I should like to point out that it u open to unyone todudine goests to take part and I hope that many will feel Doved to partidpate. Indeed I trust that the spint of the Back Watch, wtuch us so very much la evidence yesterday will today inflame the wbolo conference, Dr D CHAPHAM (Laverpool) I have a feeling that the method of Sir Alexander Can Saunden analys obscures como qulte oportant problem. I have found as an examic la three different departments that we tond every time to adjust Our standards to the total performance in any one year * that there is a remarkable commstency from year to year and between departments o the proportion of failure if not of successes. This makes it impossiblo to dlacus succes und falure between departments and therefore focuses the wholo of our attenton on the student, I believe that thu dependeoco on the cvidence of mardng causes 1 to Deglect the mental factor that any fallure ka ballure of teacher and papel and not Derely of pupill, and I feel that almost everything we have heard thu nomug described the faflore of pupils and not the failure of tbe teacher I am engaged n what the American call 2 CTO and different departinents. I find that the proportions of Pucceeds and fallure of postgraduates in these departments are kmlar but I belove that three-quarter of those who succeed in odę arbject would ful if ramined by the same standards us in another but that these students rould succeed in the second object if taught by the teachas n that depart ·37 ment. That is to say the essential out the quality of tho relationshup between the teacher and the popil, the enthudama which the teacher can generato in the pupil This is not days omple matter of emple and the ability to teach it also a matter of inderstanding and recogidtion of the permal problems of tho students We hayo beurd vuluable reference to good psychutnata and there vero things of a les potenc neture with which Profesor Morton dalt yesterday A good tutorial gutom od good student welfare officer an contribute abo to tbe reduction of fallurcs from there lands of an I would strom that COS or faflure Access or failure of the profendon of the Unitraty toache Profour F H NIWARK (Purns Bufam As I under Hood Dr Chapman, be invited to stand in a metaphionaal white sheet beating our own brouts and sying Vea culpa My hmprespon is that there » Do need for anche alarm about this matta When we find a long but of fulur not too lang but respectably long one we know that the univerety in doing its job which a to separate merit from mediocrity There a story about an American university La the faculty of arts of which it was noticed over townber of years that in the first year olumnation to per cent of the gudenta regularly fuiled so they called for the advice of the department of peychology and the department of psychology with all the confidence one aspects from paychologists, was able to my that those fahres could adly be predicted at entranca. test wu upplied and the 26 per cent fodiated by the psycho loglata pere diverted from the degree courte lato a specul diploma cornike created for their bereit. The remaining 74 per cent went on for the examination in which a sami 26 per cent failed! Of count there ao bonpd to be falara The story . probably apocryphal but the corul car What bad happened ms that the maminen had naised that standard Let us pot decry the rising of stun dards by en puners jf our examtration results showed Poes of 95 96 98 per cent they would attract all the guncions ich usually attach to elections on the other sido of the Iron Curtain wbere like figures are returned Even I think there 1, perhaps nonething to inquire about the morning, uod If I makl attach blame to unfreretlen it would not be for what is done daring the unlentity course but for whnt is done at entrance in the matriculation toats. There are two thing to be all about entrance testt 160 is that unlverdties are almost completely abdicated their functions on this respect. In tho 2x of most univestres to-day the majority of the sidente come in on Creoptions ·60 mans rf testing the faultlases of the syston on which it Igend for Aftog our merit from lack of Dett. It present there is an entrance examination und if the ndrat passo it he is interviewed and admitted to university tury He is made to believe that he is fit to enter the 1 LIVIT Later on be doslugoned about hlorell us uch you are Is it not a great waste of national resources he time of the teacher and the unistity and the opportunity 1 thc tudent) Where list the fault? In the camination holl nndoin questions are flang No doubt the system can recognise tho che who thorough on the mobjoct but it u not posting mlv that me who I thoroughly prepared we are abo pening De who gets as 35 per cent of the marks. That is we also allow m i certam amount of lack of knowledge on the part of the student We do this by shooting random question at the Atudent Is this the proper way to do it? When someone is to deliver a lecture be knows the subject beforehand and prepares for it deliberately in order that be may do well His performance is judged after affording him all this opportunity Why should it not be lie that in judging the mustery of the student over his subject? Why should we not tran the gudent for a deliberato purpose to a dehberate way instead of whing, hum to appear for some un cen questiom Surely we should extend and deepen oar testing Aytem and not let the demon of chance play a part in deter mining the mont or otherwise of the student. I should Hico to hear the sugestions of those present for solving thta problem Professor R. A. HORTOX (Lire poor I should iko to uh Sir Jamo Lermonth two kimaple question But perhaps they ut not as emple as they rem to be. The first one bo How does the layman tell a good prychla trist from a bad ono ? That is a perfectly serious point any of to occasionally have to band aner the troubles of our students to somebody who know more about it than wo do but wo do not get unanimity in the opinions of the medical profession about tho Appropriate perm to home should send the students As to my second question my loprereon from camining at the second Blevel is that one thing needed in order to pass tho krond BLB u a determination to alm first ut about 35 per cent m three subjects simultaneously rather than to Low Tally a pood deal about any one part of it ud the record think needed is a mod natural memory that it we really ke how to choose potatui medical students so that they would go through the utvendtg machino thout a bitch me thould be measuring memory I should He to I poet ·61 at Sir James whether he thonbas no should be far wrong in arching for doct' if the chrome the prople with tho good natural Diwrat. Profeur SU JAIS LI ARVONTH Pahapa I might reply now about psychiatrists Of course opmions differ about psychtatrian. It is tho umvunty s responstohty It osoally bu poo plo who can give advice whether a paychatost s good or not I think the advice thould be given by medical man because Lay people are us you boor almost entuely ytorant of medical matten und are very hable to be lod utny by will-o thows of all sorts, not only m prychutry but who in other branches of medicine and surgery Yo are fortumete in Edinburgh pertups that why I stres tbe pomtm that we havo Sir David Hendermon in wbom * hayo not only a great prychytrit but very fine general phy clan. With regard to the port about memory I thought I had made my ove vew on that point clear. Herzory does matter #great deal m the first round and third profanclonals, but m the final oxunto #uch I copader should be not on tandemic enmination but i cix duty on tho part of the Oamewhat la testod not memory or shortld not bo memory but the capacity of tho gudents to cope with straplo tuation which they may or may not have encountered during the medical tnmmg I do not think they can do that antirely by memory They may do it pertly by memory of what they buro xen md of wat they have rund, but I do not think it is entirely a matter of memory They must be ablo to reason from first petnctpler The Ror Canon S. L GREETILADI (Dwww) I wah to draw attention to one particular difficulty bat before I do that there are three points which I should bko to make brlody As. matter of fact the Durtam Dividon has already been andons about the number od medence of futures, and mo hady have a committee forestigating it. I u pot meraber of it and cannot tell you about Its program My and brief paint is that but we are decumang this morning may have mething to do with what wound going to dlace this ternoon. So far as fafort or fotocom m comotion bookcomed, at any rate, fruction employment to be seended u quite a pormal feature of meeruty Hfo It may bo that we shall have to drop oor gandards to respect of the factual knowledgt demanded, though certainly not I bope to respect of other way to wuch one mouwes ability I bear from my colleagues, mons particularly on the center wide, that they think men are being overloaded by great demands for the knowledge. Pe an perhaps I ·62 afternooil Fhether vacatos employment has anything to do with that Another point that I want to moke a very familiar one I rent to be , the importance of some kind of tutorial system beca al no convinced through my own experience of men hon I have had for that kind of work that many of them ather would not hart pad their exammation or this #cally more important-Fould certainly not have derived full benefit from the intellectual side of their work if they had been left to lecturo alone To what atent untitatia are able to provide roch tutorial work outside lecture I do not ko At Dorhat it varies a pood deal between the different faculties I went particularly to run the difficulty of the man who is Food, or looks us if he will be good for most of his work but is Lacking on some partxcular tool. I am thinking especially of languaget It come up in two an. Fint there is the lack of ability to expren Otetell in one s own language. There Again, I am told by my scientific colleagues that they are constantly hampered by men whose sclerce is good but who have never been taught to expren themselves in Englih. Clearly one hus to do something about that at the university stage but I think it is fair for us to keep rubbing it into tho wchools, pointing out that fulures which are blamed on the WIvetates may really be the responsbihty of the schools and that it is their responsibility and daty to teach people to expres themselves to thetr own language The other adło of this comes up most scutely in my subject theology and it must to some degreerbe relevant in other phere and that concerns knowledge of clinical lang Lo my own ar, I am allowed. complete discretion to deciding whether u man may red for honoun theology of not and I have to connder whether or not I can rok accepting & man who knows Httle or no Greek. I do to fact takot rood many Hils and I um glad to ay that on the whole they came of I am stating that as a fict und as a difbculty to which I find myself I do not pretend to know the answer but I apporo there are two Ades to it. It seems to me that it to right for us to keep on going back to the schools and uking them to make it portable for people who Fant to lean there Language to do so Many men coming to too would have been perfectly willing to learn Greek but never had any chance to do po But the othe ode of it--and it may be possible for som of you to comment on it-s the duty of the university Ho abo trest on Hebrer and, qute naturally scoept our obliga tion to teach Hebrew from the beginning but at Oxford Cambridge and Durham it has not in the past been accepted ·1 4 1 u toe normal duty ben unge to honour andidatos It ir Hurtit 11 to be fache that obligat rl shrul it 7 Laturul ome No doubt this batin PTTK but of detail. However the whole probleem ik bilty to do a certain thing whereu in eli her inports that won kem the right one to take the trous Jean round 15 mmhmg which must tronble of thos who havt tu deade whether or not a man should do it. . E. IL SPELNU (Notlustaza) Without undemulag at all the Importano i pod weifar ervice and tutorial sytems, it is very important indood to distingulsh between student who is going thrust a temporary difficulty and will mubo good and a wouk pudent bon dever gomg to be Tury much toe u far u beng ustverkty graduate la concerned. We ure running into a very real danger of propping up by means of welfart vers Audents who are not really able to be valablo graduate of the writy and we need very much to combine commem eme with Wind heute noch towards the godkents th whom we come to care contact. Mr G H SPADDEX (As Bdfan We ure north of the Bordet also but I am a fraud that it is better known but le respected one then that referred to by the Chairman thus mornhug I should my fire that I feel that the prison who know bet the student dificulties to be co-student, particularly if they have been attendng us undergraduates a comparatively now uptvendty at penod when the present amenities did not edat I believe that ono of the facton which repult in the percentage of fallare that the condary schools are respondble for a lack of Wrectlon in sodies to populla who ut efficiently old and sufficiently apable to qualify for the wroty but who tre not goindently mature to appreciato their ration. I pucrent that one of the remedies for that a really an todorsement of what Professor Norark referred to and it would eliminate a lot of foten und fetam that is that tho talverkty either through a cupplemental forma of matriculation ammation or an independent examination, sbouk in dit on webny that the student has had a good, brond education and pot merely auming course on selected abjects. When the cam u they do to-day they are getting through their matn.calation or equivalent entrenc eanmhon without the Jightest idea whether they wish to proceed any further It is marested that you thond hart camination by relective metal grading I. very poptkal about that. No matter how able the paychiatrists from past experience ·I do pot think he can at that stage determine the peak kudeat who qualifies well in ha catrace ammination bat fulls dom ben he comes to bus later ammatomi. The next difficulty you have to lack of interest or lack of vation to yoar cubjectsThis may be u 1 tent of the great mcrease in state fancial aid to students. In Northern Ireland wbero state ad bas only come to the foro to a large degree in recent yeun we experience difficulty poinging from thus cane The fond parent says that little Jolmny la gomg to bo . doctor or a lawyer or a dentat. Littlo Johnny Lo perpaded oto takmg ruminations to enter the mivelty und he aten it but all the tune Johnny would mach prefer to drive a tractor and oventually be would probably mako o much money on that work It u difficult to find a remedy me curo hiko that because he gets through his entrance mamination You may my that the tutorials and the check-up n the tswel manner puovde a remedy but you connot throw out a boy wbo has dono Prell in his entrance examination until you have seen hlm part of the way througb bu cours then there a waste of public money As an instance of people wbo have not got a vocation--it is not confined to young people I lcwm my undergraduato day a man of 35 40 years whose food annt had left him £400 a year so long u ho remained a student at the university Ho remained i &txdent for 10 years until the war broko out and the salary be would get in the RAMC beaumo greater than £400 a year That wu his vocation I hope you do not mind my digreeing facts sometimes help particularly if they uro amusing There was the young man who went to the unlveruity but bad no idea what bo wanted to do His father was i doctor and wanted hus som to become a doctor The soa wus tn rooms which were not at all attractive for kudy and he was fond of dancing and card Hos father andered why be mined to many com amations, and called at the digs ovening expecting to find hus som studying The landlady maid he would not find his son thore at that time of day and that he would not bo in for an hour or so The doctor replied that his sum ought to be free from lectures at that time. The Lundlady replied I did not know he run gudent I thought bo w night michuan When you get this wort of car it is very difficult to remedy but tho remedy seems to lso with the welfare offllar I would be against the invason of privacy and against probmg round the duet s bodongs Welfare officers would bold a wolfaro bour welfare time at which they can be comtalted privately by students who are n difficulties Another point which one or two of the speaker this morning DC or ·65 hove mundoned bu citizen of the loctting As.no Academic member of e aute I am untruenelled by any tibitions in regard to altica Ode of the most dishearten ing thing for a fret your gudent is to attend a lecturo what tor lecturer ppab to repidly that the student is so bury talling down nota u to be unable to follow the parpore and intent of the lecture. The stadat takes down the notas und has to read them all afterwards. Nothing hapo dhearthing especially if be to pot farmiliar with the delect or ecoent of the Lecturer or if hob a fortiga #odont. Lecturers could greatly artist by seems that ther lectures are not merely a matter of reading out of their potebooky Obe profesor new went Into the class room with a roh. The door would be open and ho would go straight in mout the rostruta, open hy notebook and start the lecturo strukhtaway It has beca know-thila is many years ago be li pot there Dorfor hum to open hus Dotebook ud part lecturing before 1 rolitury student citered tbe chans room. That u also the problem of the studant who logo interest cotirely in the lectures About 12 months ago an American student at a catan umrenity to Ireland approuched hos Lecturer and mud that bo hed grant difficulty mi followmg the lectura u the lecturer pole so very repudly and asked him If he would have any objection of a law student brought m en "Einkbata - one of the new dictaphonon-to that the Lectum could be recorded and played back afterwards The Lecturer wus nost ndignant Bat, having box mterest in the lecture abont a week later the boy was formd coutry the border with prohibited goods and was fued {1,000 Thuat n an crumple of the repult of losing mterest in Lectures IU-bealth and worry are also two very big problems, and the undergraduate very reloctant to come out into the opera and admt theon Hart is veed for the services of the welfare afficer ind regalar medial mpection If we cannot get remedies for ich falures, perhaps we may have per qualitation, which has been known in certain anirauties abroad, of " Fuled B.A." Failed 11.B Prolo J L Homo (Astochox of Uncerty Tuchers) The fact that yet another Belfast speaker baus come to the rostrum may make you feel that the mootto this morning bs not that of the Black Watch but that of a famous Northern Ireland regiment Clear the way I think I should arpreu the feelings of delight of all of us At heanng the first speech from one who is not a profesoal lecture I wzot very briefly to empron my agreeincat mith one of the peeches which re base beard and to add one new point.

·66 alty itself As to my agterdent I believe that what has been old an be exprened in the ny that the failure of the student at the venty may will be latenon of the treets of the Imiver I think that follows from there consideration Our tests for entry to the aniventz une largely derived from comidening whether or not the candidate has been fiecarlo in his school edacation. If the initialty cdacation to accenfal it will introduce the student to highet methods and to a higher level of education and, therefore It follows that mnere Ricctu in school edscation not bound to meu barcocos with thu different kind of education There must therefore be some failures by students if the Uniteaty is being accessful m going beyoed school edoatlon I now with to refer to a point which has not yet been mado It seems to be mored that foulure by the student m his cautations at the aniverzity means total fallare by him, favore to have denved any benefit from his untreaty educa tion at I thnk that that may not be night At any ate peakmy from my own experience I know some of my own audents who have failed in caminations but nbo burve clearly benefited from their galveruty education. In my own faculty we make a wrlow codes vour to co that our emasmatory are not mero tests of memory bat are tests of broad mteDactual ability tests of problem-solving A dgnificant Awaber of #udents who have falled in cmine troda havo told me how moch tudeed they have appreciated their univeauty education. They have appreciated the fact that there is some other approach to study than mete coming ud they bave appreciated the value and wpartance in general life of reusonmg about that if these people have learnt nothing she they have at least learnt one thing which Str James Learmonth considered of very great importance and that 13 a knowledge of their own liraltations Professor TB.LV IESTER (London) I wish to make three pomts very brity Hy first ponts in antra to Canon Greenslade I an only speul fa Greek us a technical subject which may be needed is a tool. Personally I am qolte dear that it is the dut wversty to teach Greek from the eart to people for whom at is needed, and I will go one step further than that and my that unrventies should tac i spectal sort of Greek for theological godents My recood point coactus dificulty triung from the ne coanimation system. Lo the as of classics at any rute wro have got to know that people have a certain technical proficiency, when we take them ih. In the old days before tho mirknew the value of the good mark in the higher certificate of A ·I think yoa 67 cumlmton We Loew perfectly well from our experience tamen in that examination that that matus upplied with extrane care od that the borderline between the good and the no good was matched with extremne are. Now with tbe new aummation we have to ach good meri, ed that Ba real difficulty for the future For my third point I wab to quand very lightly with Sir Alendder Cart Saunders on the object of the interview We bope that the certificate of toate will tell us that our people are technically proficient. What we do not know to whether they have got this technical protamcy m then #rido or whether they have got it with great labour can find out womething about that by mterviewing people before you take them into your school There ba kunothing else that you can also find out and that is whether they are the sort of people you and your colleagoa whom you know pretty well, will be able to teach. Both are extremely valuablo preces of formation to have Dr J W BARR (Lads) During the last few yean I have had more to do with some of the failures than I have with the TLCCCCL. It has been my job to talk to these fullures. Both the main speakers have strewed that one of the room for falure is the difficult trengtion from school to Univerty in all its expects methods of tudy different Furroundmg md woon. My crperience is that this to an Streedungly important factor and I think that apperiments which are at present being condocted in the way of freshers conferences and short pre-univernty training courses are very important approuches to the problem which should be given BeU comedonation It wenntno our methods of pacpartng prospective students for the transition, we may do a lot to redoco fulure at least in the early stages of conan. For my second pout I want to emphas what wu wld by 1. Spelmm In dealing with those early failures we need to eart that we have to water whereby each mithal failure has personal individual attention in order to encertum wbether the aux toone maladjustrocat a temponry difficulty or whether there is hikely to be a repetition of the friture because of the student stability to cope with ustverdty TOTŁ The in the event of robocquent fillore ut « lata are we should be in postla to determine whether real lack of uity in the kideat renda discontinuance of his cour desirable in the best interests of both student and uniitty DI AH LAKU (Adrian) Se Alenundet Cart Saunderi made it very clear that what was desirable in the general ·69 u truming of a student was something more than in academic trong and that to meaning succes one would have to Degiro something more than the student. Ladenko per formance Nevertheless the discussion has largely resolved itxelf mto a discussion of sademic performance and methods of teaching In my department in the last five years we have taken figures which show that 15 per cent of our students to all-round active students 35 per cent are, apart from tho course of study totally mactive and the other 50 per cent. range from a high to a low average. In ancamg the reasons for this atra-curricular activity to find that about 30 per cent. of tho gadents have a deliberato reuon for it they have set waldo all the other activities us being something which interferes with the goal which a to pass thetr cominations they fall doe In same ways that landable destre bat in the case of two-thirds of these students ro ford that it has Largely a matter of luck of tittative. Thus emphasises tho point made by Str Alexander of tho quality of initiative in the selection of students. In Analyse academ performance we find that of tbose who may be graded exceptional 60 per cent. are also active to other respecto We also find that about 25 per cent. ar totaly inactive in other respects, which means that they leave the university with a degree but with very little else I should like to aut two questions which curry ruggestions, The first Woold it not be good thing for all students on arrival to have made clear to them just what the university spects of them, pomting out thet the univerzity, does not require them merely to get down to it and furot but would hke them to take put in other activities ? That would solve the problem of the people who think that it is ther daty to get down to work and do nothing cm. It might also be Bofal stimulus to those bo lack the initiative to do these things on ther own Would it not be a good thing to make thu explanation to fudents definite procedurom the Weeruty > Secondly it has been made clear throughout the discussion that great value attaches to attra-tutlcular activities und it bu becs stated that all the univarties are able to allow is tho abillty of the student to score marta at emmmattons und that there DO WŁY of Abessing the all round activities of the stadent therefore would it not bo good thing to sot up a ristry of extra-curricular activity? The students would bo required to report to that registry say once a year ud ln charge of it there would be a welfare officer who u bos been streded several times would have to be very carefully selected a man wo would take 1 sympathetic interest in these people, ·Tocord their actinthes for the benefit of the muronity und at the one time try to advise the students und guido them aloog extn-auricolar lines and, where that you shynes or dificulty perhaps also make the contects for them. The CEARKAN Our time is beginning to run out We shall fylte our lading spokens to make any comments thay with upon the discussion and, thacfore, I thank we had better limit further ntervations to about two. DI R J STILL (Land) I would lice to my something about the relationship bet veenbelth md student pefourance In tho univenuty Faite apart from the question of Albens or diseun mental or phyncal, many of us have uked oupelvom wbether there is any relationship between phyzal or tempoh mental constitution and ability to perform in the examination ataution. In Leeds we aro bepinnmg to thmk tlat there is 2000 bych connection and that It me which can be tnced. A xudy has been made in Leeds of the physiqoe of 700 fast year students and an attempt has been made to mako on anulyas of tber tauperuments, and their coundation results haro been stodlai. It appears that muriations in phyoque alone and variation in temperament abond make no difference to what a nan doa In antaation tests but what does seem to be agnificant - and it seems to be agnificant beyond reasonablo doubtthat what important the matching or Immooy ar comgruity which cats between phyt:quo and temperunent It seems to come out quite clearly that wbero temperament and physique arc wel metched the modent stands a good chance of dobrog well in ho maminations and that where there meems to be some lack of COTT sparxdence between physiquo and temperament the Rudent aceins to havo pocial difficulties By well-matching and by correspondence between taaperment od phydquo vt mean the fat boy who has the type of tanperiment Daully uocated with Bubble Bute of the tough sturdy muscular Rog man who has all the meged, matterful qualities capected of btm or the weedy skduny man who b nervous, apprehensive meticulous and thoughtfal u the lean od bungry Cagu ro traditionally poppoeed to be But sometimes, for retomo whilch are not dear to us tho Billie Buntar a tho Victor Naturo in primo derdlope a Coxas tempeudent, and wboa that kind of thing happens It xem u though tha kod of person has to conted with Tory real difficulties These results seem to us to be officlatly latoestilo to justly further obsernation and sudy and to the meantimo we think that they may be of morte practical value in beplay ·us to give to students the body dual attention and help abont which we have heard this morning Mr Y D FOULAUT (London) I am here to laun from you this morning and not to report results but I want to mako it more widely known than it is at the moment that the Nuffield Foundation is sponsoring an Investigation atending over 10 years with the object of making pouble e systematisation of a mass of tnformation relating to all the problems which you are riding here. We have already been working for five years with the belp of 300 of the grammar schools scattered all over the country which supply unyer dties with entrents und with the belp of the University of Shaffidid which is co-operating with us on gund scale. Withm the gremmar schools we collect details of school lavmg cumtnation results and various woments by menbers of the teaching staft Ptychological tests to also administered on a comprehendre scale at this stage before there is any question of application to untversity Within the umversity further psychological testing a carried out hule the detais of all cnmmtion results are also made available to ou I do not want to report to any detail upon the picture which emerging beaanse the experiments are us yot in com plete. However nothing that I have heard this morning is really at vurtance with the sort of things that we have discovered. In particular I think that what St Alexander CAIT Saunders may fits in extremely well with the picture we are building up by ang prychological tests and other objoctivo manures detail of examination results, the weakents of tutors and a whole mo of other formation. But one Important point I feel may have been moved und I would like to draw attention to it. It was to be accepted almost without question that the ordsting entrance procedures do not correlato very highly with the actual perforovance to the Univerity subsequently It seems that there is a tendancy to accept the difficulties which this nba within the university to asome that this sort of thing to thevitable, and that anyhow it to the job of the unfversities to Freed out people beyond this stage and to clawlty them. But it follows from the lack of correlatlon between the entrance requirements and subsequent more that not only are the universties loaded with people pot ratable for degree courtes but also that there is a pored hillty that a lot of people who could profit from a miventity education are being denied it. It strka me that this is one of the most important social problems nuired by the difficulties which have been discored this morning I should like to feel that kme attention w ·71 belng given to thit upect of the problem u vell u to the difficulties wluch the aniverdtia themselves un facin Tho Rt. Hon. LORD CHORLEY OF KENDAL (ARTICOHOR of Uwerny Tachors) Oto point oko out of the observation made by Dr Mackim when he mi pomting out that Sur Alanında Carr Sunders m hla opening address had greated the fact that tbo uttatment of the degree not at any nute a complete tent that the univeruty has fucceeded with the stpdoot I have been feelmy that very much for como timo and wonderng whether some parald gystan of certifying succes could be developed rather on the Imet ind in the Admiralty The Admiralty pay a groat dal of attentson to a scheme which they have for nonding an officer's por qmties ming moral in a very de ponto, of count-nther moro pertapa than his mtellectual qualities, becamo everyono knows that in fighting a stop at se those qoulin ure the ones which count Dutug the war penod I had a good deal to do with the organtom of the National Fire Service. As we had extual offices in high command we adopted the Admiralty roethod for megpmg the qualities of leaderuhip moar officers, and I wu very much imprewed by it. I should like to see an experiment cated out m one or two of the universities on the one Iba Thu could be dono by adopting some kod of survey on the lines of the Admiralty test In addition to the degree text. From the point of ww of many employers and others engaging Tiduata, I am quite miro It would be very much appreciated, and I think it would enable us to mdicate whether a student had been fuccesful in other rorts of way besides the particular perbape rather martow mtellectual ny of obtaining degree. I cho think that umibar sort of systan might provdo a wefal additional test in dealing whether you would accept 1 student for admission at all into the univertity A competent badmaster in an exceedingly good poetico to apply tho Admiralty method. I onttrely agree with everything that bas been mld about the ruloles retalta of interviewing for place How can ope adequately estirpate the abdition of a bolo ware of people power or mopid menon befort an interviewing board -I think that Prolot Vemon mus absolutely nght about that-but I feel that when you kao Your headmasters und can give a certam umount of weightago to thor estimate the Admiralty roethod would be valuable In Leung 1 gudent ability to desire real advantage . uniranity edonation ·us to give to students the Indiridoal attantion and belp about which we have heard this morning Ir V D FURXLALT (London) I u hare to leam from you this moramg and not to report results, but I want to make it more widely knora than it is at the moment that the latfield Foundation - sponsoring in baiestigation extending over 10 year with the object of maling powable a systematisation of a man of information relating to all the problems which you are running bere. We have already been Turkmg for five years with the help of 300 of the grammar mchools scattered all or the coutry wbich upply uniser ates oth atnants und with the help of the University of Sheffield -utch is co-operator with mon 1 grand scale. Within the grammar xbooks we collect details of school heartng enamination results and various assements by members of the taching staff Psychological tests are also admmstered on a comprehensive sale at this stage before thote any question of application to upherzity Within the universty further pare bological testing is carried out while tbe details of all Tammation repults are also made avulable to us. I do not want to report on any detail upon the picture which making because the experiments are us yet locomplete. HOWEVET nothing that I have beard this morning L really at vanance with the sort of things that we have discovered. In particular I think that what Sir Alexander Carr Saunden a fits i extremely well with the picture wc ure building up by ang poychological tests and other objective menos detals of ermination results the renents of tutors and a bole mne of other formaation Bat one tmportant pont I fed may have been mbed, and I should like to daw attention to it. It seems to be accepted amoost without question that the disting entrance procedures do not correlate very highly with the actoal performance in the unironty pubsequently It seems that there ba tendancy to accept the difficulties which this rates within the university to me that thu wont of thing is toetable and that anybon it n the job of the untreruitter to weed out people beyond this stage and to clarify them. But it follows from the lack of correlation between the entrance requirements and sabecquent acces that not only are the oneratia loaded with people dot gaitable for degree courtes but alwo that there is a porability that lot of people wbo could profit from unirety education are being denied it. It strikes me that this is one of the most fmportet social problems raped by the difficulties which have been discussed this morning I would be to feel that some attention nu ·cations to tbe vaker students by offering them ralls along which to run If we did not do that I think thero mold bo more failure. My fear is that beane pabilc optaton holds that monop berg wasted by turning people ont of the mversities, it may go further in the wrong direction and help people to nm along the lines which are latd down. that leads to the last potnt and that is in relation to romething and by Dr Macklin bo asked whether fudents should be told what the univantities are after Hy imprendon this what I ru trying to my at the end of my reunita -that the internaties do proclaim what they are after on met occutons, but u pon u tho Hodent ote down to nonnal university Life bo fods there in comadorable gap between precept und practice, and that what he has to do is homething quite onlike what he has been told that university oddation 6. That is what tropas hin und not the admirablo objectives woich he is told ure what the umfernty welc. In fact the umhver tre malce coacendons to the students in the hope that this will lead to mort Ricca than might otherw.o be the cux. In fact there are still a considerable number of tulures, ad I bellove that if the univerzties really did what they hold themselves as Auming to do the number of fallures would be still greate I do not think I need add anything more I only hope that the critido hich has now become appareat and i gotmg to becne much louder will not lend the universities to go in for & system of trainmg, coaching daging and pushing these perrons through there courses with the object of reducing the number of failures I believe that might be destroom Profesor St, JAKO LAHOTTH, in replying to the dication I have three bort thing to say One in that u z nero doctor I would define & udvendty and let the students know it us" place which provides opportunities for acquiring toowledge I think that ought to belp them to develop what fitiative they hare, but I deprocato very strongly over-coddhing them. Secondly the point is well taken that e ban mwed somo talent AS untverdtla, ure pot altogether at fault there The fupremno opportunity for measuring med talent camo in the wr with the other dection boudyThere bourds know what happened to the patrons they selected bat so fur u I know they did not know what happened to the persons they did not select with the exception of a few who wero sent up to be boards Lastly I deprecato the application of too much walyd of core to these probleme Like any other problem in medicine this to a blologial problem. I u Pery much taken ·74 by a umat made by Sir Edward Swabury the keeper at Kew the last time be was with us in Edinburgh bo ali, \Vhen you are dealing with any biological problem, romerber that statistia uro the cosmetics of biology The CRAIRULAN I ww beginning to suspect myrell of certun Amount of mental obtoxenen because of a feeling I had that we wero not really getting down to the fandamentals of thbs matter and I think that was poobably due pertly at any rate to the macalladeolines of the contributions to the discumon xo I was very relieved to hear that a certain research unit was going to spend no less than ten years on an investigation Noverthelen, we have had some very useful done100 Before we dispetxe, I am rure you would like me to tender our very warm thanlos to the leading speaken and, if it be not too badly out of order I should rather like to couple with their mana thoto of the speakers who have contributed to the ducodon from the floor ·THIRD SESSION SATURDAY ACRIOON Decor ISTE VACATION ELIPLOYMENT Charme DW LOGAN BC.L. YA DO Prmapal University of London. Nolas auld prior to us conference for wines by Profesor Cu acima. 1 Hitamaal bedround (2) The otention between the went (b) The period of the war (c) Tho dtuation after the war 1. Vration work (.) Kunds of work (6) Length of workmu porods. 3. Proportion of students engaged a nation work. + Reasons why they undertake mort – (a) Necematy (d) To enable them to bay extrus (c) To finance foreign thvel () Far Operience etc. 5. Studenta attitude to vacation work length of the period dealnable the kind of work etc. 6 Attitude of representative univerhty teacher (a) That ba wholly bad (b) That I wholly good () In moderation may be detrable. 7 Advantages of the titan 8 Donntaro. 4 Conclusion Tbo CRAIKKAX I believe all of what will agree that the perroos responsible for organising this conferenco have done an entirely good job and I can say that withoat any false modesty became though I am a member of mort of the pub-commttee coopected with the Committee of Vic Chancellon und Propuls I ara not. meraber of the particular Ab-comunittee concorded with the conference ·70 In many ways they have kept the good wine until the end. Not only have they chosen for the third session what I think the most interesting topic not only bure they secured that both the speaker should be Scots but they have ako oven managed to provide a Scot as the Chairpen! With that Onxque combination I im sure that nothlog an prevent the version from being a sorces At the amo tume hanng attended a good many of these conferences, I seem to recall that womerbere about a quarter to four the rot rots m and there h a slight drift towards the alt. I hope that will not happen today and to an attempt to meet those of you who rere thinidng of leaving slightly early I will make in offer I think it would be us well ll we Agreed to close this session at 413 p.m., on the understanding that everybody stays until then I gather that this proposal med umanimously and withoat any abstentions 1 therefore have very great pleasure in calling upon the first peaker to address Professor Vacinda. Professor CI HACIYES WALD Professor of Imperial History Univerdty of Bristol To begin with I wish to make it clear that in this paper I am speaking for myself alonc for I am well aware that there may be somt among my colleugues u Bristol and my fnends in the Associatson of University Teachers obo may disagree violently with some of the opinions which I crprens. In the short space of time that It has been possible for me to devote to the preparation of thbs paper may investigations have not been us extensive u I could havo wahed This subject of spation rork for students has been discused a good deal of late in the press though I must confess that I have found little that as of mach significance in the letters and uticles that I have read. Sometimes it seemed to me the mters were inclined to over poblicke the young people CODcerned and to sugest that full time gainfo employment during nations wus entirely prabocworthy One well known Journal, boreve pent to the other extremo and muggested that the granting authorities would fortid stodents to take oo perd employment while in receipt of grants for further aduation Even if it were possible to put this purgestion mato effect. I would still hope that do authorty would be so rriso as to adopt poch a procedure. During the course of the present your the Yational Union of Students conducted u rucation work orvoy but the response mus poor and the methods employed in collecting Information were not above antaan Stil this document which is based a rome 135 replies, Dot all of which are serious replies, contalas some useful information De F D Kungender ·mnado a thorougha goung scientific oximation of the sodat allora and bone conditions of the students registered at the Uolraxity College of Hol in 1951-42. Among many other intacting topo, he deals with vacation work. Tho w by far the best document of its kind that I havo rad ud 00:0 could wuh that mmilar investigations at cumnad out in all oor universities. In February 1991 a survey mu made by the Grants und Welfare Sub-Committee of the Students Unxon at Bartol 877 completed questionnaud were received and this document, ugain with any obviou defecte contam Notre fact that it walThe Chumman of the Committet aloo applied me with information of my request wuch be hud colected from undergraduates to his own and other muyoruto Tho Bristol Umyunty Appointments Board md the National Union of Students have both furmubod mo with statlitla od student vacation work, In addition over of my colleges have carded out fur mo departmental inquines on th> pubject, and to response to lottan I have wotten, I have received dozens od dosens of replies from university teachers and stodents both to Bristol und In other tiverota Dat I u well aware that my evidence to all far from complete and I present what I ay to you to day merely to the natura od 20 mporondom. Paid vacation rock for gudents of course note de tiang Thu engineers are expected to do some form of work connected with their future profemon, for which they und Mounts peld but my engineertog friends tell me they are pald badly Sodal Kience Andents frequently work during the atomer vacation sometime for pay sometima not Proxpective toucher do a certain mumber o weeks of teaching practice without pay od there are other groups ach us dentists, who do pard wit. Soch activities however us they are detinitely part of the preparation for profondenal career, le outode tho scope of the present paper We ut bare concerned only with pald nation work not connected with the particular courro upon which a student is moged In Scotland od I understand that I must be very careful about what I my here-bere the dtuation havo ray diferent from that of England and where could we organed mu different mameT-I ay 21 that in cu my Scottish Idends feel I u mogosting there is any Identity_thu long been customary for undergraduates to work for mos durms tho ration In Canada and the United States this practice to fionly etablished. Thos at Dalhousie to my tume, for sample almost every todent took on paid not donng the long ization. Even in the adent Unitsities of Oxlad ad Cambodia poor bat able students—I think they were able because I none of them before and dmn the first ·7 world war sometimes supplemented the comes by coaching the son of the rich Between the man when unemployment as rery proralent few jobs were open to undergraduates bat even then como rication work a done The post office at Chastmas already in the thirties attracted a considerable number and I know that some students nuoding & Bumber of my own popils were maged og venous kinds of work duning the summer zaton I think it a doudon to belyere that tbose who did not take jobs spent all thetr time on academic fending During the war the otuation wus very different It DOT became every goes duty to do something to help on tbo mar effort So post office work at Christmas increased numbers of Audents tool temporary jobs in factories in each of the mcations there were barrest camps of rurous forts there vere tumber camps there was pard fre-matching to be done both in term time and invocation and there were otber opportunities of gainful employment. Even recondary school children now entered the field After the war the whole kene was changed again and Dowce was thrs more marked than in the univerdtiet. Thanks to the widened stein of grants, more students don came up to them from the lower incomo groups than beforo the war The new entrants were not only accustomed to barrest camps and work of that sort while ut secondary acbools but mumber of them had ready earned sono money by delivering Dewspapers grocere and otber goods een before they left the clementary schools. So wben they amo to the poverty they took the idea of worldng In vacations as a matter of code BLorcover there was a mach larger proportion than ever before of med rodents with family responubilities whose grants although frequenth someone vero nevertheles metimes meficient garn it was time of foll employment and there was Httle or no hostility among workdog people to students who took og anal or temporary wort I also baro tbe mprention from the evidence which I have examined and from tats with stodents-dozens of studentsopplementing the many better which I have recared that the post-war period there has grown up 1 CODendable deure on the part of young people to stand on ther or feet. It o my bebel that they do not take their parents waliosomoch for granted as their predecessors did. As for the ruggestion sometimes made that parents of to-day urt only too ready to start the reliebt of responsibility for theft children s maintenance from their Omn shoulders to those of the au-pusiding aandmother Kato I can find little or no justification. Indeed on the contrary I have found much ·2 ovidence to suggest that the perents of to-day wou respon able and ready to make manices for their children u the parents of the past Vuy of them to ready to ask their own tocurity in order to co the future career of a D OT daughter Thus for sample I kns of railway cat who mortgaged his house in order to maintain his son at e univer áty and poch tratances could be multiplied many times OVET Doubtless thero aro u there alway have been some drong in our society both emong parents and among students, wbo aspect much and give utttoond todeed bdia und gentlenen it may be that there to some of these aloo among unipendly teachers and administrators. But I im coortu.cod that och poople, in all these groups are po few u to bo of Do lmportance What the wo may al is the attitude of the inverno to this widespread practice of natiom cumployment ? Univ dty touchers and administrators uppear to peak with many racon on this mbject, but I think I am Hght In aying that they all agree that students should look upon the vacation u i time for worldening and deoponto their powledge of the mbject they ut studymg. I have a strong tealing that only a few pure in worldly souls among univerzity teachers believe that it students vae able to do so they would devoto all their time to stody A cona derable body of our chilongues think that paid action work is wholly bad Thu B the tic, they may whuchu meant for intensivo reading and tbo student who do anything dee should be repenmanded Slace grants according to these people and piltident or should be atident, there should bo do financial pecoenty for each work. Earning o acquired, they go on to ry and wally spent on unnecemary harunon, und habits of extravagance abould be discouraged. It pointed out by these people that students who have worked continously thropyh the long nation return to the Oniversity charted and quite woát for worlous Ladeink study Tbere still langer group that favou vation ork though tow of them I think would encourago full-time employment. Thos, medical profesor congide that it ta most dearable for pre-cliolaal medical students to spend some part of ther vattoo at work once the will emble them to ndon their apalence and to require a pater kon ledge of poople Othen bold that pochi coployment to equally dennable for prospective teachen uod certion, who other vke pould have little a po opportunity of obtaining practical first hand kpowledge of the workday rodd. These people are not convinced by the contention of those who hold that the nerd s elrendy moet by the period of compulsory national Service ·A large number of wivedity teachers and admmigrators according to my evidence, coorder that in moderation vacation work may be of some value. For 1 young man or woman who has spent a hard term At book forh, they believe that a spell of some entirely different ockupation may be dearable and if it camned on in the open air it should be healthful. Foreign language students wil unquestionably benefit by Hokmg in the country whore language they are seeldag to RET Tanous amreaty teachers havo witten to mo or told me of the mapartace of the wider experience and the greater knowledge of He vluch can be gained by vacation amployment. That is not always the case. Working in an incomo ter office for three months does not seein to me to udd much to one . experience Such people may suggest that for thb purpose there should be a fow days at Christmas and a week at Easter and perhapu four weeks in the Ruimer but no more Jany people prithout bearing m mmd tho great differences and there are great differencer which cast betweco thus country and the New World constantly dum that what has been done in the United States and Canada should be done bere Let me make it quito clear that I do not share this view although I am a Canadian eod pleur therefore do not in the disctodon, attack mo for maying that we abouid do in this country what is dono ACTON the Atlantic Turning to the godents point of view many of thema declare that vacation work is Decentarybut the word nccc mry requires careful emmuration and definition According to some of my correspondents, cigarettes and mid-morning coffee dances and theatres, er all decessaria and in the broader rause it is posuble that this may be truc But I fiod it difficult to bebeve that such thmga uro o esential that the commmity at large should be expected to pay for their It seems horrever that tbere are some students who have no financial resources other than their grants. There may be arptuens or children #bo coure from broken bones ud there appear to be a great many of theseor those whose parents ure too financually encumbered to give any belp I take it that the present policy of the Government b based on the sumnpuon that a tall grant should be efficient to enablo Hudents to Ine in term time and during the yucation at modest but reasonablo standard and that grunts aro graded m relation to the parents income and capacity to audit. As I onderstand it, tbe intention to to allow the full grunt omly to candidates whose parents det income is $450 and undet ud that utbe pet tn.corde rics, the amount Awunded be reduced. There feeling, I no 200ny profendom people and people from what wed to be called ·the middle classes incoding.congdonble mumber of tmirer dty teachers that they ar penulid der this system. Catainly some member ft 097 professon are to-day confronted with very glustunnael probleme because of the Increased cost of In me and many of them I un ind it hard to meet full or it costs Indeed, it seems to me that parents with hi noubt be cordered a fantly high Income - £1 000 to +1 503 hitb a family of three or lour chubiron, would be hard put to it to make up the differenco between the redpoed plant und the full expenses of maintalang ont ac two or perhaps the children at a univerty Be this us it may ti mrst obvious way in which arch young people can rupplement the axustance they receive from parents and their grants to work for wage Accordmg to the Hall Report adodne porlding dus students, about 81 per cent of the men and 64 per cent of the women worked for rabey n vacatons While the not the place to discus the question of grunts m detul, and although I do not feel that I have enough towledge about the matter to enablo mo to speak with any degree of confidence upom it, there : One more thmg I would like to ny on this mbject. I am mformed that it is the policy of the matry of Education to allow andsted students to rotato Don-rocurring grants up to £50 and wchobunuhrpe of £20 per conum without e corespoodmg reduction in its wards If this then those local authorities that are alleged to reduce that grunts by the amount of money camed in vations par to me to be acting contrary to the spirit of the Government wishes and this practice if it costs, in my opunion to be deploreda It seems to be the general yiow of students that grunts, at the best trobarely sufident to meet foli term-tme expertos, actuding larmes, and that mation grants of two to cover some twenty weet of vration in a your are wholly Inadoqmate even for baro gubostence. The water of the Hol Roport believes that grants for students at Hun had remained at the level of the bst weston, at least 53 per cent of the Amarda to mon Add 67 per cent of those to women would have been in pulti cicat Last year 34 por coat of the men and 39 por ceat, the women to receipt of granta coald not have mulntained the requate standard of livmg thrungboat tho your without supplementing, ther income from other pour In Bilstol, us the evidenco It can be called orldence which has been collected in the 877 completed questionnaira sbon the position bs mock the amo. Informa tion I have troetved from Sheffield and Lirerpool lands me to the conclusion that womer state of affah penalb In those places, od I think we aan zwme doubt with some ·82 UO besitation that with variations, the station is not very diflerent in otber placer The Vauonal mon of Students of course far moro forthnght in its critters of the policy of granting uuthorities, but while I hould be desanclined to accept all of its evidenco at its face vahve it does ke that some trockents today ure compelled to work dunng the yuation because therr grants and their other financial reports if there are any afficient to maintain them during term time and in the vacation at the modest standards to wxch I have referred I think I should point out here that the majority of students inly the majanty I have consulted and I havo Conalted several hundreds packed here there and everywhere ---frankly recognise that the community cannot reasonably be expected to pay for their extra but at the aime time it is my view that much extrou should be avulable to them they are to lead full bte I cannot more than guess at the number of those who are compelled to work in vacations in order that they may fermain at univeraty According to the survey of the National Union of Students 64 2 per cent of those who replied ald they worked from recepity during the vacations, but only 13 per cent stated that the wus the only reason for worldne But, as I have already painted out the term Thecetary u used in this document is extremely elastic In the victor of the writer of the Hall Report the proportion of students wto stated that they had to work all of most of the vocations in order to mpolescent thar grants rufidently to keep them Klits way 6 per cent for men and 1 per cent for women. I should bazard a guess that if a complete investigation wtro made, the position in univeruties generally would como pretty closer to the Hall standard though some institutions would show u very much higher percentage do doubt and some a loner percentage Aguin, in the curvey of tbe National Union of Students a surprising number of students state that the chief reason why they worked dumg the long vacation rus beanso they trere bored with nothing to do the Sheffield Union however Inforded me that ths opinion is pot borne out by its experience but I am bound to say that in several of the letter which I bare received from my own and other DIYerdita boredom was seriously mentioned as one of the routons for talang on ration work This appear to mdicato that univerdty teachers have not been to conphatic as they might have been in makinx clear to their pupils that vacation #ody bs an antial latort of tho menty Uſt Aluge number of students take sobe in order to buy dotla A man may want a derut and father will not stood it and

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·they do farno vork of different lands at home and abroad they work in hospitals and other institutions they wo taxt drivers, botel miten porten shop instanta, canteen waitrea nursery sortrand they coach they salat travel agences they are stewards, stewardesses and memben of engineering staff aboard ship und pon. No young person I have to far tocountered seems to have tried hy hand at journalista, which in my remote yooth I myrelf found amming ultboogh not hucrative I spent a part of one yuation ua Junior reporter on a Western Canadian bewypaper the attor of which Inforned me when he took me on that he wus not to much concerned wth fact us with cratement Bot u bo ronde me cover i vestry meeting a baptist convention an anglican synod, a methodist women i bomo meionary society conterenco memoral Krvices and funeral it toed my mngenuity to produce much endtement for him. Tho National Unxon of Students believes that elght weelu is about the average for a whole year but my impietoon that it is rather more than that. Whilo I am able to give a precise estimate I should say-100 thb be rough goen and can only be a rough goers unless we have a completo lovestigation that something like co per cent and perhaps IDOTO of our students are so engaged at some time during the your At Hull, for example the figures are 86 per cent for men and 68 per cent for women Although the figures for some unuvergthey may bo much lower-und I know that sono RO-t u my belief that others are about the came level u Holl The pay of students varias congdenbly-fron £1. IOS. 1 week to £10 I think the £2 ton jobs are those which univemnty teacher obtum for their papals. The average would appear to be m the Deighbourhood of 14 to £5 TBC National Union of Studente puts it at Is this may seem unbeutyble but I mow one man who Iced ho income by several hundred pounds He organised a concert party at the scuode in which he played and ho made a turnover of £1 too for the number This must have netted bim aum al £300 to £400 at least I know of another ten wbo cleared (90 but bo did a great deal of overtime work. These are the ghant It mporable to make any reliable atmate of tho avereco total cainings but certainly these commonly reaso from £10 to 50 a year In paring may I point out to any of you who may be interested that I understand there ist botel in London which will clock you in at 10 pum, add out at 2 um for a Que the more being dbh-muhing This brig De to tbe question Wat b the effect of vacation work upon students und the cine 1 As we might aspect bary work of rort of any kind through tbo bolo ·viation laves Uttle tone for study uitbough there are sono Tery hardy students who asured me that they were still ablo to do momo reading It is ny behel bowever that full-timo work, whether for thort or for long pedod rondan uy serious intellectual effort during that time difficult If not Impoomble According to tho National Union of Students Survey 43 per cent of those who ropied eated that nation wurk mterfered with their studia. It s only fw to the Hodonts to paint out here that the peood of rock i muotime prolonged agunt their own wishes Thu I am told that employer ut often dioncipod to take on Loyono for 1 period aborter than exht wel. The student thoroforo confronted with the problem of decidung whother he shoold do wart work then he believes to bo dainable on then be withos to do or do work at but, u be wants the money for some room or another ho tually decide to work for tho mght poets. At the same time, the majonty of the students whoso opinions I have heard or trad uppour to Conder that though it may tako too much of thot tune the experience of action work w valoablo od enjoyable. This I can readily believe, for of I may bo forgiven another personal refereixco, I worked for part of 70 vacation in a long camp and later in a lomber camp In tho Rodides, and although I mado mctically nothing out of it, then went wou very minting and I shall never forget that delicious feeling of phydal re being which came after fairly hard day s mammal work in the open afr Tarturor my sodation with the lumberjacks comprenably endliched my vocabulary, and this bus subsequently proved of groet valoo to me in dealing with rockitunt undergraduates und, in particular with rowlog man With the fint of my coodudos, no ono bero will degree No man or woman, under any condition sbould be required to talo on paid aplogakent dustag term three I LO RIO word agreed that po student bould be compelled to undertaldo wak covering the greater part of the long rummer nation and the whole or part of the other two hady to order to bo able to remain up at a miyentity This group I belrve to bo call, but it unquestionably nest and must be takan into con doration. In addition to these gudenth, there and many It woens, wboste grunts must be supplemented to 6000 way or another ff to use the word of the mister of Edocatioo they are to obtain a proper benefit from 2 untreaty com any of them there are work. As I baro ukl, I believe, komore that parents should and that many of them do help their children to make ap the difference between the grants and what they need Often thb aktusco a readily stres, eros et acrifice. I also beint that it wanatle to expect the community to ·pay for students luxuries. It does not seem to me to be a vos great burdshup for any ablo-bodied young man or women ts bermurod to earn enough to buy these things by a period of misurating work during the winner vacation Thilla the woh to be independent it commandable I cannot accept the view that an independenco acquired andrely at public expense is necesinly virtuo Thoth at Christmas and Easter is much more extensive then I had previoadthotight and there are a few students who pork solidiy through both of these periode Thb is a pructxe which should bo discoanged In tho mumer the most common perod would seem to be about eight wtela wbacim my view a much too long, whilo work canded on for the whole vacation is to be condemned. It interfere with the proper carrying out of university reading it tores the Voung peoplo so that they return to the univeruties unfit for strenu nus academic work The writer of the Hull Report borre conaders that the time spent in work for money crually bmuted in the majority of cexes in order to leave. nifferent reserve both of the end of energy for the yucation wody which a recognised to be necessary This view I have found tubetaptated in many replies I have received to my lettet mod om interviews I have had with students In my opinion ystould make it very clear to our pupils that vacation reading us sential for thle lact does not con to be wholly pooped by como young people who to day como from bome upacquainted with the ways of universities. It is underrublo I think to increase the amount of set Work to mach ap estunt that there will be no tmo left for anything ebc for this would be unjust to those who work from Docesorty u well as for those plodders who uro pot in the first fight ot ucaderar capeaty Wo should rocommend to our students that if they feel they must work, they should not prolong It undaly and I think we hard a right to advise them about the klod of jobs they should take us well u thom they sboold avond But having done this it difficult to see what ebro pe can do in the matter except to treat them us responebla peoplm. I ne of course that xodents will be employed only when there are jobs to pare and alter the data of regular not dog people have been athfied. Student labour Ht it ohti, must be supplementary to and not a cheap abatituto for any part of the Dormal laborir toutes of the country Bot provided this is borte 10 mind provided the reqoroments of the university are fulfilled and alor provided that the students retum to us physically and mentally rated and ready for work, it is my belief that pald employment for a period of not more than four merka ia the nominer preferably in the open air or abroad and of not more than two werb ·danng the Constmus und ist incations combined may be of smo conderable valur The student thorebycarns pocket money he wides bis in 1 of men and affanor at least, he an If he has ths llwit of joke and eademic standards Dead Dot be lor cell Thu is flood which we cannot stop but we can control in direct it if ht Ard Wix. V LLO Sur DAVID LINDSAY LEK Vasta of Baillal College Odard I am here to stuta li cupton and to do o within ten mmutes even if som I tb se potos of mine are maificed. I runind myself to the this is the final com of the conference in that you Vr ( euman, have told in of care of its perils I sell remember at the codes selon Homo years ago Sir Juma Duft warning that we had now entered those whalos water that botohen approuch to the dedred haven-Our return truma home and that it was through difficult wounding that one daylgatod after half purt two on Saturday afternoon. But in that there is reasuranco to all who teko pleagro in authng on the rear or have to start ducu the thelloper the water the chopprer the waren In these ten minutco I must indicato at least one of the points on which I am in the strongest greement with Profesor LacInnes and on these if they iro unacceptable I hope this audience will take us up The first to that to my vin- which I think i ako by this practice of peid omoployment being taken by aireraty docents during rications by come to say It seems to und to be an foc vitable consequence of three forces whore Impact we have all felt in our relations with the gudents committed to our to democratization fall employibent-which means that there are always jobe bero and there to spare and a welfare state Ripported by a redistribution of tricome which has greatly dimmbbed the freedom of chalen open to students u to overyone else Until como fundamental changes brought about in the whole world in which the univortica u ut voch, vation employment something to which we munt lauro to adapt ournera As Professor MacInnes has told the bo e flood, und ta it yo me asght. Certain contrast are implicit as background to this dlacolon, tut Profesor Vaclona and I bave this als in common that both come from countries in which the potton of the nation job o far from belog unlamilar i accepted and traditional. He has told you about Camadi, and perhaps I may tnke up wat be suported shoat çon Country for I an very well remember in the Univerity of Glasgow to the day before the Art war when noge of the infuences which havo made our present problem u ret in erhtence rimart everybod, did oe reek. Christus roth to the post office ·or 83 and there were among o Viang-like heroes who took jobs us porters on the Clyde steamets during the rummer season showing a combination of neutical and social skills which one preatly envied Further back still there mus in one s mind the recollection of the old Scottish cademic yeur divided Into two approximately qul parts that which started in April and ended lo October being one long contindous period of vation employment vopard on the farms which were the bota of so many students Thus I did not approach this problern with any such predispositions as may perhaps bo in the minds of some who will take part in this discuroon iny DAIUW LOd oven unreal picture of a bygone, aristoantic ally ordered untveruty society in which well-to-do young men occupied all but four weeks of the summer vacation in broadening and deepening those studies to which thry were porqumed to have been introduced whilo torm was on That and of univerats ble and society so far us it ever crlsted has gode mth the wind Thero little prooit in instituting contrasts between the present dispensation and that which vanhhed from us forti years ago. Our own probleo us, I thunk, inercapable ud ope mat not uk bkaha vacation jobs should be taken, but why they are taken Here I endeavour to present some of tho wers which my inquiries from my own undergraduato friends and their teachers bave ebated Among them one may potc provioon for bolidays-nd I pause for a moment to deplore the habit of oxpecting to tako one of more annual holfdays abroad as a student. In my tune and I dart my tho time of many here one eved up year after year for that holiday abroad until at last it ame and I annot help ulang whether liberal indulgence in school parties on the Contment for long periods-sometime spent, I think in a rather hurried kind of dght-weing which leaves little serious impression upon tho mind has not created a babot repeatedly requiring an indulgence a hich it u tometimes difficult to accord. Among tho other reasons given was the need to buy books. This came fauly hub and that is not surprising when the cost of boobs especąly in certam branches of study bas trebled and more compared with what we had to pay Thmly there were LorDC as of just making ends meet and bere there is ficance in the contrast between the practice of the Winktry of Education and that of local authorities wbove madrum great for the year may fall well below the standard which tho Umhtsy accepts and recommends. I do not quarre with the boal education authorities for their atttude towards viation grants us och but thero a marted discipAncy over the your taken u holo between pen financed from there to different sources There seems to be one exception to tho ·89 Vinstry practice. I wil quote If I may e letter from a min who was placed to the Second Cles to Clasical lodorations after the normal fire terms and who has therefore proved himself in able ud diligent pupul. Ho wntos I have worked on the following once I aun up post offico sorter hotel Feiter Income tax dak, frut pocker and hop pichom Tho time I have tal, ap on this has been about ten day to af rtnight in the short nation and four to stt feels m the long vacations Wigo la nnged from 35 to 47 with an averyo of about it While I rau engaged in Bods to Clunda Iru able to do thb and fust do my work us well low that I um robny for Graad it not at all eas Of the money I enmed, mont oft was not pant on abeolate esentials but on soch things u entertainment-pocturos Christmas protests and travel, not abroad. Now that my grant has been reduced I on obliged to be the money to pay my landlord, rout. I havo five more terms before School bethe I shall coutinno work during nations or powdbly devoto all tho time to academx study depends on the Ministry of Education, He b among the last arvivors of the class of people who aume up ou teacher tratamg grants, and hb letter throws . Hoht on this particular question which done aan dezegard. This to not worlang-clas student of tho Hod of which Profesor MacInnes reminded us, but a public school boy, tho son of t retired officer living on pension which has not been Increased. This u indeed not dans quortion Briedy to mention the affect of national chce to which Profesor MacInnes refered, it very commonly u that when the yoang man, whether use nankor or on officer bus for two yeont not been a charge on his parents, be finds it acceedingly hard to come back to bemg charge on them during talanty mations and tries to provide for himself. One student admitted that he wanted a change of occupation during the nationaly ode out of score who answers my Inqury The young men meget do pot in fact demoda regalar recurring release from their book. In thebt tnterest od pication they rem u good us to crer had. What make is being pald for dl this vtation employment, und ! it worth-bilo > I think there to more tasuring uspects of the problem than have been put before us by Profesor MacInnes Many boyy umive at their unferty with a rady made was that they will tak. jobs in ration, but the hold of that Idee are then derdintaber trom jer to The majority mas be job-taba ti tho finxt year only i fruction to the second and hardly any in the third Voetbar jar ·it is due to a greater respect for learning or the near approach of Fiouls I do not knox but that is how it works out in practice Var doe rication employment nocerenly mean pard job I every single vacation. I should have thought that that land of thing u one exquired into it would turn out to be pretty rare certainly not I think, true of the majority though I agree with Professor MacInnes that about 70 per cent of our students ure at one time or another engaged in pand vacation work, and I wgree again about the duration of soch employment. I want, however to add a comardent which he did not I thunk, offer about the nature of the jobs they take. Too often they take those which interfere most completely and harmfully with mtellectual purpaits Students do not want office Jobs which laut too long, are not meil pall and do not nvolve any overtime rata. Here are some spedmens of what 1 bemg done gathered in : angle afternoon of enquiry tochndan in a chanical factory tros conductor on sommer boliday Tvices in Lancashire Walter carning £18 week fruit anner-this mus interesting usa kasonal occupation in which you can work on a Sunday which is double time and go straight on to the blooday and get double time again because your shift u umbroken, so for two day work you get for Another cumplo wus builder labourer Agala with plenty of overtime. One must recognize that long hoan and heavy manual labour make two things impossible-Inst, getting on with prescribed reading and wocondly reading outdde one own subject less than ever can such boola bo read when everal wees of the vacation are med in this kind of work Such, it seems to me, u the dtuation which has been forced upon our students, became society as a whole has nied for them tho question whether the price of a pocket of cigarette O BOTDC otha omple modulgence or a book or a bollday or oven paying one 3 way for Decensersas does not fa volve the scribco of precious lerrure and the scorch for gulnful employment. These jobs are done for money That the rain reuon with a slight qualfaation here and there Widar experience of lifo be by product. Vor an opo be more whether the etperience has much worth it may be aid that some soch esperences are quite useful but I do not quite accept that they all are Recogning what the main motive is and wbat the consoquerces can be we must, u intuity ta dhas, face the facts. We put cit mas advisers and friends to our Andent on this matter as on others. If we press for a ratio of one member of staff to ay a doren students I do not think we de crve It or lvo ap to mr job unless to GTVO count and varning too days pay ·on nation employment A my tvu ting to this Daning discorson I am less impressed by statistical enquiries about tbe felures and access of students than bry the feeling that their fama tre also ou failures and that if We got to know what sort of difficulties they face about then nications as well au in term-time and box they are murely o skonid got to the root of some of the problem which Impede thar eademic progress and their access m university le. The CHAIRMLAY I am uked to remind a present that they uo welcome to take part in the discusT whether officia? delegates ar invited guests. I am also asked to request you to Coule up to the platform and to prefac por fenerla by giving your name and the institoti which you are Comectad. Dr EP HODGUN (Tamu 118r 1/4") Har I thank you for inviting me bere It has beer ny mut appreciated My oe reason for pealing us that I not ima e univerety and e country whero Vacation emp tcnt 13 the rule rather than the exception and where irh it true to say that a large proportion of the students will And it difficult to go through the university at all witl it with employment during the vacation. Inodontall om cerned by odonto may be pretty conuderanh Vy n km earned about £90 for six weela work re rar The question I want to uks thw at students do not work duding tho nication what do they do I am not convinced that a great proportion of thao, át d in the early yond at the university are yet able to wrct their own studies adequately during the period of vacation Thx tla tp with our docton tho mmung I do not think that during the nations student bave the encouragement o pomibly the opportunity and facilities to continuo thelr university studies 'Ikhould be the last person to suggest that we should have them back in the vacation throu open our laboratodes und be there to give them aduce und perhaps lectures during the vacation, but they are to the tbar vacation time adequately instead of getting a job then they Deed more direction. That be the position in our wuvendity ulthough I do not know bether that is so la this country bat certainly to my own stadent days bere I conot remoctober that ho vero pivo allicent direction to enable us to work anything like the bole of the reation perrock Dr G N BURGLARDT (arcado) I wish only to cophasis one of two points already made particulars by Professor Jluciones and to rela to the chose connection ·between our dssono end the dikuspons this mornmg Rod vesterday Yesterday at were discusung methods of enabling students to get faller benefit from membership of a univerdty. The fundamental problem that of the wo of time and azerby-und Cross connecting with what u and this momung I think that bone of the most difficult problems which our students facon coming from school On the whole the time of their time at school has been fairly dovely planned Planning badminkhed to the Sixth Farm but the chango bould be greater when they came to the thurentio In universities where the souten centres on lectora and laboratory work students may think it ba rather like the school system and may be deceived into believing that they can continue with tho modest level of initiative to wich they have been accustomed at school. They may need help tn pulang the adjustment One of the reasons for the fattaro whom we descued that morning 1, I think, the lack of skin and of adytce in that matter Talking to our freshmea at tho brgiaming of the season this year I outlined what tho univeraty offers to them and felt it particularly important to cuphase that they need to think in terms of a full day a full week and a full year in disposing their time aod energy umongst their verdty activities I agteo entirely with Professor MacInnes that the key practical pont in the diacundon is the length of the period for which they take outsklo employment. I am not a bit Forted that 70 per cent or 80 per cent of thom take carne employment in vacations, but I am very concerned tbat tho mg period weens to bo as high as elght week. On the quartion of financal pressure the malo ause of tbo dificulty which I wish could be diminished are those where local authorities fix ther major appards at a level luch is regarded a reasonable minimum lovel of maintenance and thes for their gnats at a lomer, Lovel atit For esople, last year a student of 34, Lring in lodging hed a grant of £140 with no other sources. In Manchester lodging cout on the average aboat £2 173 per weet without lunches, o clearly you cannot live on £140 That required not merely a modest level of supplementation by vacation employment which could be undertaken without anreiseblo competition with nication study This is a matter which noods fartber urgent attention The last speaker reared to the use of nications for audy wbach u the poutive consideration. I certainly think oder students need more godance on this and coulderable change of attitude on their part, and sometimes on their partita part. They uso need more effectire accen to boobs than a porable at present ·Visa CE SALLEX (Duhan! I he tu to add statung ulter what Sir June Lourmaith Y thu roti but I think there are lateresting They are to um wurk figures for students at Vencastle and ment whoub I would bring out b that these figures for Venusiu throa ftrater emphasis o work for the whole racatan tu the opening spealer pated while I wree that min student lecl the need to earn astra money during the va tx n I am ther concerned about the time they spend ont There are figures for the Lut fulln (1951-52) and before I give then I boud vain that the students bave hand, for the last two year dien thoat vacation work aantation which run um Dhe committee of SRC The college hu a student population of nearly 3.200. Thr number of appbabons received hy te station with organiser Ww7.054 and the jobs found *TO I 6.00 Of these i S1 were long vaation juba, 38 that u more than half of which were taken for the wbole scatun 318 for about two months, and 152 for one month or less The roof the I boo Jobs I referred to were done in the Christmas and Easter vocations or were wall part tude jubs during terin Stodents ato beginning to look for these octagonal term timo joba. For matance they wil xe creum at ſetet or on the beach daring the pumpt term They do hath watching Too Organiser puts advertenta in the local prefron time to tlmc reminding the poble that students are availablo for baby watching Men x well o wpinen apply for this work. Ily figures for the year 1950-51 are not so complete bat during the long vacation 597 to be are taken of which 18% wero for the bolo raatron 103 for about two months and 232 for one month or to There is u you will re, growiny tendensy for students to work for the whole proatlan, and the figure of 582 out of 1,032 atrika mo na tery daquieting IN A VACFARLAXG (BITmingham) I do not want to take up tur in going over ground which has already been covered, but if I do not cortiment on what has been waid it is not becan I do not agree witstantially with a great deal of It I want to comment on to paints which have been put but scem to me to have been diavised rather lighth They are not perbuss the most important facton, but the count for a I u struck by the laughter which greeted trademar MacIpoes account of studenti u bo said they worked at palid jobs in the nation in order to be able to do that book work. an only bope that the buchter wurdence of that had of marthlul tool which is the method by which peredor brings the truth horpe to us because lo bone get that food deal ·statement 1 qute tnx. It is particularly true of Tomco stodents and especially for those who live at home during toto I have been told by a hudent that we lobed to card come mosty in order to go back to be room for a fortnight in the vacation to do some work. That is partly because of lack of recen to boola, but even more because of conditions of working at home. I 202 not 10408 over the ground of the lack of a quiet room in which to work because it is my experience that having a quiet room in which to much dot the whole answer There and Dowadayı domestit das Op one s time and there is the funeral static spbero and let us be quito inund, the general teraptations to do other things when you are at botto in your own society Bat for a great many studenta Doradayı it is bound up with the attitude of home to intellectual work and operaty work and the sumption that the vocation to a holiday Unless you have a book in your hands or are writing the whole tune or even if you have you and perhaps thought to be shirhing your duty to oder to help in the borne or to go out and earn Sone money Lack of access to books u important more tmportant fa o subjects than other. In mo subjects you can take home pretty well all the boola you want bat in others you may need a lot of boolas but not to read rüht through there -you may need to bo able to look for what you want la them That b dihent without access to the library Thero s so the question of the home attitude to your giving up the time or to understanding what you are doing That ties np witb another remart which crated amusement that gudents took a job because they were bored at bomo It is perhaps ante to issume that that ban commentary on our own failure to teach them what their work requires becaum boredom i got the many cured by taking nothing to do It may be doo to not baring, people there who aro Interested in the ame things as yourself I tbink that is very much the case where students are about the only people in their home wbo have any interest 10 Idean. They very mu find that they do not talk the same langtugo us those with whom they grew up and went to school and atborxh they themselves have not card to be interated in the affairs of those people the ori in particular find it tomed that they are poperior person with do loteret in the matter which interest the people in ther environment In those drturustance they soon feel very boocty and Lonelipets makt for boredom Tbote are both renulde motives for the daire to do something else and to raise the money with watch you can my "I am going abroad I m potrą dlmblog in Styo without ·baning to ask for the france-u vel as avong you perenta perindon-bocanto your having cared the money dra yoo Dort nght to ry that you are going to do these things DI FRED FARRBROTHER (Venckato) I wish to enpunko the points whilch have been made by Profawor MacInne uod Di Burkhardt about peods of employment of eight wobo a longer Prafcpor laimes directed hu remarks mainly to the man who took pard employment not connected with bbs profadon thert u bomover ako the problem of the roan who attende vaation courses connected with his profendon A number of Industnal firms and the lImistry of Supply run vacation courses, some of which are my weeks long md BODO eight week. In the care of the eght veelo courte, either a man stay for oight woeks or he does not go at / It is obviou from the care taken by those who run there vacation course that they are trying to do thefr bert. Clearly mamo think that an eight weaks como la dedrablo. It would be a great belp of body like thu would direct their attention to thic ondainblty of a kmg period of vacation training bocioso if I man pads eght wobs in what is probably quito in ardous training course and then be a boliday there is very little of his viction left for reading Profesor S H BLAVEX (North Sufordele) I have just been confronted with an unusual problem. Profesor MACIDOS weld that to days gone by local authorities wero accustomed virtually to forbid students from talding Jobs in vaatloos Procuror MacIES No Prodmor BEATER That wu the imprendon I got. But It does not matter to my oumat. Recent evidence to my pomedom progests that there has been chango of attitado A xodent recently come to me with a document from his local education authonty very enlightened county borough which contained three paragraphe Long other. They ald that tboy recogndaod that i mbjects liko geognpry od gology students ac spected to do fheld courses in the noatlans, and they would help to finance them socondy In respect of cheabstry mediano, engreening od other mich mbjects students were normally expected to take part-time occupation during the peaattor They coatinded (this is a panphrase note direct quotation) If, bom over you an produce a certificate from your tutor that it Dectanery for you to study at home in nation, ou may be prepared to malo in ertn mintenance grant. That baromethfog quite new which nubes problemas ·What kind of a report does the local uthority mant? Do Te dy Thu n un excellent student in which case tho local authority might way In that case he does not need to work in the vacation and we need not make him a grant Or do we HAY This is a very bad student who must do homo Hork in hu vications in which cand the loal authority might even threaten to spend his grant entirch I do not Lpor what the education authorities attitude will be I have not yet prorded the report in question, and I would llke to know whether anyone else has evidence of a punilar chango of atutude by local authorities and if so what they propono to do about it Professor F Daimtox (Leeds) I think we all welcomed the remarks of Profesor Blaciones and his very arcful and detuuled analyus of this problem I must confera however to boing more than a little worried both by hba words and by thor of the data of Balliol in w far as they accepted vacation work as a permanent faturo of our university Illo add Lkened it to a flood which was unlikely to be contained During the meeting 1 bave been wondering whether practical measures could not bo adopted dot merely to contain the food but to reduce tme spent on vacation work to reasonable proportions. In my experience most of the bad decision-induding that to do an excessive amount of vacation work-made by under gradontes spring from their lack of knowledge of the true purpose and function of a univerity and therefore of what a univernty cypects of them. Tbb inorenco is particularly understandable m the provincial umvenuto which are often Atuated at the centre of large grouping of industrial towns and, 2 & previom speaker mentioned, the only marked difference in the mind of the undergraduate Hving at homo between the local grammar cool and the local university b that the formers reached by tram and the latter by train or bus It us therefore copaclally important tell our frcih men as soon as they arrive at antvervules are about and what their prylleges and obligations are a membors of a unventy I have tried talking to undergraduate along these lines-tehng them that this is probably thetr only opportunity for rent and reflection that a stained effort in their own field of study is the best return they can make to Individuals and anthorittaa wbo have enabled them to come and the implications which these facts cry concerning the umorint of vaation work which should be undertaken. Tboso notions are often recerved with mingled facredulity and surprise but u bezeficial effect Kanttines apparent, u for sample when a man efter dbadoo the member of staff reduce the amount of nation work be undertaka ·despate hardship or other parte rezon. The frechas conference makes good opportundty for the talks, bat possibly a better method is that adopted by the last Riding Education Authority This anthority provides the oppor tunity for U those with its us about to enter a univaruty to lie for two or three days together at Graatley Hell and to Are yarety of parker who un expert in the diverse my of many univeuties, talking about many aspects of ontsendty life. If instad af taking step of this kind we accept ration work u normal activity it may soon becono full time employment throughout each of the vabons. This would HALO many senrotrs prartical consequences, eg ather lou cown or a lower level of attamment at the end of a course ol fixed duration but the most recous consequence is that tmrreraties would before long be regarded merely u fatta trons providing formal teachjog for thirty weeks of the year I have only one Dr F HOPARES (Birmingham) polot to make I am httle puzzled to understand why two months vhaton employment should be universally con demned. The sort of students I know most about are medical stadente, who in their dlmxal years habitually work in hospital for at least two months of the long vacation. I cannot member that I ever had more than a ponth boliday in the summer and medical students today are no better att I agree that it deanble or at any rate inevitable that a medical student in his clinxcul yeans should rock at a bospital for two months in the long vacation why is it con sidered to oxtrenely bad for my an engineering student to work for two months a factory and at the mine time be peld for it? It is true that the bonn may be longer and the work have httle or no relevance to the next curation bat Le is learning bor uther people live and labour valuable lesson for any budding professional man or woman Sir RopcRIC HILL (London) There are one or two points which I should like to add to the doctosion although touch of the ground has been covered and one does not want to repeat what others have mad I agree n the main with the Hos of Profesor Jaciones and the Warter of Balllal In Imperial College me and CODCITOed only with the faculties of cience and technology wluch includes all branches of aginta of and It rurfrued me to lam that people WTO mo anxious about the tripe estudot shoold normally expert to work in the vacation I think our students fall a little ontdde Professor dlaciones category unong ont engineers ud our chemat ·و Dear it o regard it as quite natural that student should spend two ponths of mort laming about the human dde, the Organisa tonal problem, costing ud what the worlashop floor looks like When he hos dealt with his formular und so on all through the year it eens essential that he sbould soe a bit of real life how things happen in industry wo to speak behind the scenes. The puy varies considerably between £3 od £4 in Europe to £10 in Austice and £18 in Incl Vost of our students say they do not do vacation work for pocket money they do it mamly to pay the cost of their travel und for a few dodeat comforts on their way To go by ship to Israel, if a student want to see any of their electral undertakings, may cont £150 and u he earns £18 e reek he ha getting somewhero We have an organimation which may be familiar to some -known a IAESTE the International Apodation for the Exchange of Students for Technical Experience. I think I am nght in uymg that it was initiated by a member of staff at Imperial College No 33 sean ego He has developed It with the belp of one or two others in the college It started as a code activity Dor its work has become international The office of the Apocration deals with 19 different countries The cichange of godents, both foreign and our own, is unnged through I A.E.STE. tor Dearly overy univerkty in this country but the work » confined to technology and chercc The problem of vacation studies, which started as a trickle may be a flood but I do not think it neede more than sonra) attention The low has to be controlled but ita legitimate part of modern education. The reports which all these students of whom I bare spoken have to write on their retum ure of great interest The btg industrial firms and the lipistry of Supply are developing a system to deal with vacation students Our Superintendent of Vaation Studies Rays that, through the Asociation yldts of Canadian students have recently been arranged to American firms on termes more financially tavourable to them thap were possible before That has come about through a Britleh oranzition, whilch bus operated moothly in the chileroog social tavironment of many countries. It is an example of something which sprung from very small beginning I admit that I have dealt solely with students in science and technology and that the problem of the arts student the man radme history or literature is different. But au long as vacation stodias bring him into touch with human beings in responsible positions, and if he earms potigh to free him from trivial enrotles and is troubly looked uter the cdoxcational fect of vacation Audies can be wholly benefical ·Yr G FLEVVYG Limtry of Education) I do not propone to coatnbute to the descado, becamsa I bare no experience which would be relevant-and you all know too much aboat Ou kuin Bat I do want to take thb oppor tunity to ay Thank you first, for being able to be here ud to listen to the 2 nants of your experience which have been poured int docwson, and which will be directly seful to me ondl-und this hus somo relation to the pomt nied by fusor Baver-beause the discudon ho comfirmed Do 10 the view that we ard dght, o far tho Umbtry s grant ure concered, to not trylog to determino in all cson what the should be by . ngd role, but to allowing a number of quesur particularly that of nants for vacation, to be matter of individual thought and todividual recom mandations in particular cures We havo Introduced that for the first time in the current year and we are getting very belpful recommendaturu frum . number of members of university staffs I am sorry that we have to burden them In this way but the afternoon dimundon confirms me to thinking that are right and we tre very grateful for the belp that we are getting Profesor F L W WOOD (No Zeder) I do not know whether the following pomt would occur in this country but it is a practical matter in low Zealand. One datlonal Teuson why young men and women take vacation work to that they are often faced with the chance of doing w and then working full-time dnrmg tho university redon, on the 000 hand, or on the other hand caring their living dosing the antreruty touching Fersion I can think of ono campo young man of quito good quality whose grant all accept s verk, wus absorbed by fees in tho urreratty booted Ho got busy in the long vacation cod cartod something lo the rogion of £100 which enabled him to concentrato soildly on turverdity work during the rest of the your We have been fighting hard in New Zealand to do something about the problem of part tome work, md we feel that, 11 pat too much prosto on pooplo lice that might even pat greater obutedas in the way of morbos university work by cocourying an enl which is in some circumstances role than the good are attempting to cure. This problem of the mentenance of students o coraplicated by the fact that in New Zealand almost anyone who complete i utdactory Recorxlary bool cour battled to admhalo to a antrerulty The doct not necenlly, an adroladon to 1 Foctalist facult, such as medidne for example, for the medical people tre a problems of their om 4 I understand is the core te certain other countries the have borover a very high ·100 proportion of univeaty students in relation to the population of the country and this is a station which we have not yet fully duested in particular we have not yet cope with the toancial problem of mantaming at a tousetofty rich high proportion of our young people As a commuruts we have not yet fonnd drans of ging epery student an opportunity of full time study wish I am pleased to see you take for granted in thu country ID# # a matter partly of social habit and parts of the cost pratne absence of that margin of wealth which might cable parents to maintam their children is full-time university uudents I tupect that that margin has been cut away to a greata atent in one parts of the len World than it has in some parts of the Old World. Your people are therefore forced oncturnes reluctantly and sometimes wtb e deptre of entbugam which astounhes me to act but with their hands Mrame means for their orn uvernty cduntson Astumulus of this bod, although it Seads to o I-cornmoment can have a beruefcual effect on tbouc qualitio imtrative which xom.cunct dnre student through a umiventy Couy mith enterprise and oth an added appreciation of its value which can be of great benefit to thr tudent himself and to the paircruity as a bole It does not nroerend produce brilhant combination results - but, refer ning back to the mechanical tests which underlay so much of the decision this morning I do not belast that the only test of a man a succes or failure at a udrvetutys his proficiency at pong a mechanical examination So DAVID LINDSAY kur jn repły in to the discussion ax Theme ve only two things I have to my The first u to express the appreciatun I feel at having the prizlege of opening the disclosed and dienme to the very interest ing contrbution which have been roade to it Engineers mati and dortors have seen and dealt with thos problem for a long time but to many on the arts ude I tut wo an agree to comparatively DCT 000 tbough with it we must learn to Inn It bnng a new opportunity to i of we do not amply tom our backs om it and supporo that It does not cant or wholly bad if it doet, or that it toon settle itsell I think we would feel we can hod a new usefulped in helping to plan the umetuty carcity of our votny men and OT in vacations as well as in term time I bope a good many of them will ask me whether it is good or bad to spend ones tune in the way or that during vacations Ifter this dutosgon I feel that in no arcumstance tould I say they orygbt to do no pad nation work. I am sore it be Ytry much a question of degree and of kod In mezunun my second pount I am piro I mark for ·I vos purprised Secoadly Our Ancare thanks are due to the peakon pata stoulat dich.don. Personally I felt that they cut try with rather lot and I felt very mhibited by batay Is the IOI crayono wien I ay, that London University be put os tita moro docply m its debt by applying tho thauma for tbla ufternoon's discussion I dould like to move und Prolour MacInnos ml cupport me and I know you will curry the proposal by acclamatione voto of thanks to Dr Doogle Logan for having piedod over this meeting Profcpor Maces in replying to the decidan, and May I my to begin with what a nice lot of people you are ? I expected to bo trented rery much more roughly than I w In fact, I wou not treated roughly at all I was asked what the students do if they do not work What did my som do ? Playod arteket. Played tocn.be. Came with the old man m Continental trips. Did I coodderuble unodnt of ronding I think that is the tal cost of thing I am sorry I meaed Newcastle that was a bad writ of mine for I would have got moro Information from thare I w very faterested in those fatit As for La Madarlane, w "V" rand together ushe us, at the langhter which greated my remart about boredom. Naturally speaks. at umiy glad when people Laugh at anything I did not avil at it. I pertups qudto wrope, but I ruled mpold work out of my terms of reference Asland, 1 m concerned with work dodo by people for money put do thor comme ud haplos Do relation to their coun Il pot enter Into the war between the origineers, dontists and medicab us to whether it good thing or bad thing to do work connected with the profcagon I will leave that to them The word flood terms to have been on happy What I was trying to my wus that we could.cootain it if we were women I do not thmk anyone questions that it be flood and socie boito secunod to think it up the sort of thing we could not control but of course ve an handle it. Tho podnt made by Dr Humphrey ad aloo by Str Roderie HO), Wu outade my terms of referenca Tay I In coudoun Thoost encerely second the rate of thens which long been proposed to the Chairman by the Muster of Balhal ? The CEATAX I am sorry that we are fire referat overdure. I bave only three thing to my Chatr The third thtoe so that tea is now boong kenved to the Hacmilan Hall First, I would ·At previous conferences in the post-war period the following were the objects and opening speakers 1946 The Relation of the Home Univenities to Color! Universities and Colleges tu Norgery Palom) The Humanta and Science (Str Ruhend Lingtone Prolantor SH LATAC Brag) The Univerkte und the Tratning of Teacher (Sir Jana Dig 1947 The Expension of the Univera (Su Richard Sonderal) The Bar of Sclection of Unrverety Students (Profoscor Sw Godfrry Thomson Sw Jamm dlowxtforu) The Proposal to Establish a Representative Univer atas Corunci flore Simon ng Wythrastoor) 1948 Report on Congress of the Universite of the Comicwealth, 1948 (Dr J F Fosta) Unretty Graduates to Commerce und Industry (U General Sur Ronald Tus) Selection of Students for Open Scholarships and Awards from Pubtle Fonds (Sw Php Vors) Cordian or opposito page

·1449
So Walter Voberly
s book, The Chaden the
University“ (Sv Walter Moborty Profesor LJ
Ruma)
The Generul Eduation of Students (Professor F T I
Flacha)
The Place of Technological Education m University
Studies (Proſator Sur Lormonas Bryg Su Earril
Aon Emant Profesor Arira Robertson)
1980
The University as a Roglonal Form (Proforo ir
Fish Cun Professor T S Sindy Profotpor
Sır Luone Tatby Professor Ros D Waller
National Service and the Uniretuitles (AFT CE
Eteri!! NTR HAN)
Over au Stadents in British Univerdtio (Sw George
Allon Gorel Sur Ronald Adow)
1951
Tho Procedure for the Selection of Students for
Adranon to the Universities (Prixapal , S
Fullon Professor Visor Bate Dr C F Hans
Nr L P Yuton)
Unfrenulties and the Fine Arts (Profesor Thomas
Bodbor)
Student Health (Dy R. FY Pernah

·Or4000 1.0
517) M22 3 al Collmo LDI JUD.
DATE LOANED
This book may be lostor
Tom Lay
Attor of low wou te obe for mob
duy the book lapt orerte

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