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·REPORT
OF THE PROCEDIO OF THE
1954
Conference of the
Universities of Great Britain
and Northern Ireland
carneaed by
The Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals
and hold to
THE WILLIAK BEYERIDGE HALL
UNTVERSITY OF LONDON SENATE HOUSE
Friday and Saturday December 17th and 18th 1954

·Copies of report of cortier Carperenca, acqar than
for 1946 od 1950 whick anal of bu, may be
obtotard from the Secretary A.U.BCM 36 Gordon
Sport London, WC1
Prias (part fra) 1947-49
Ls. 60 nack 1951 21
1952, 2s.6d.
For et ad peaters Hot Urt of the end of her

·CONTENTS Member of Conference 5 13 Fort Scodon THE SUPPLY OF TEACHERS FOR MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCES Speaten Notes Introductory Ramala by the Chairsın, Sr Charla Morda DT EJ F Jonas Profesor R E Polects Discussion 15 16 29 46 Second Serion ARE UNDERGRADUATE COURSES OF STUDY OVERLOADED? Speaker Notes Introdoctory Remorto try the Chalaman, Profesor R. NILAI Mr J F Wolfenden Profesor H S. Mascy Duction 47 48 52 59 79 Trd Scarbor THE RETIRING AGE FOR UNIVERSITY TLACHERS Spatent Notes Introductory Reosrt by the Chairma, Professor H. R. Robinson Mr H R. F Harrod Profesor J F Baker Denton 81 81 8 92 Jodar of Speakers 110

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·HNBR OF CONTURINOL THE POLLOWING ATTENDED AS UNIVERSITY DELEGATIS Bhen E & Am, MD, D. Phill, D.D., P.RAP, FRCPL PRACP WorChancollar d Puodpel A P Tot LLC, MD, PRAP. Proba Dhepata Date of the Houlty a Xattood Woo Pretpal T I Quma, BL, L.Sc., Ph.D PRLC Protor a Chama Entoado TL x DSC P.Ing. P Lactancia Phyamd Adobon Tator to the Faculty at Sokida Tt L, Lux ta History and Thor Charmed the Botrd of State for the Get Degree to the Footty of Arta Brew te Pour Votan, CBE, KA, LLD, Vice Chancellor ft RECUALD Ymma Sco, A CL J.P. Caran at Counch E A ROLE MA Ph.D P.S. Polonor a Mattomata od De of the Faculty of Scieron WK Sur D.Sc, Bandar ta tietty and Head of Depart- Deut of Tbooral Vachana O E. Dorca, MA, Senior Lecture to Datory H. C. BUTTOD A Rabatnr and Secretary Cound RE. Hom. H. U WILLO, LCQC. LA Heche a lap Collego and Va Chenodor J F BMA, OBE ALA SAD D.Sc Flor Car College Add Protara Vectral Scleroom I.G PUTT OBEMA, MD Samor Tetor Christ Colu ad Varnwrity Lecture Photo R. H. RATTORIT LA Repatriery AL MATCOC, MC, VA Antent Secretary of the Appoitmed Bourd bo Java DurT VA XEd LLDDCL Wandte of To. Daun College and Voo-Chancelar LCounWoon, CBE WA Ph.D., DSC, Weber a Uarrasty Court L XL Yrter of Unratty College od Lecture to Copy The Dartas Color ТР TOT, LA Proor of Education, Kop Coll Nowow.the WOTDCE, VA Lecture and wd Andet History od Sector Tetor Art, key College Marthe poo Tym SITOLO TL, LA, Th.D Sectory of the Durbem Cat G IT. LLOY CBE BLV. d) Ver Caracor. Bom JO AL PD.Sc.D.F.RLGJ Got Prok at Chemistry and Pro Torchon AR WE, BL Lators in Postopky W D C BL Rapletre.

·Lut. So Hum HOOLDATO CDS, LD, Pro-Chancellor So Chaud Mon, LA LLD D Litt, Vixo Chancador A Drow. LA D.PL., Proteser mod Hand of the Deputmont a Poocomo Ad Coomerca PS DADOR HA PRD SD FRLC Professor of Physlaat Chothstry F CRATTATAY US Ph.D Lected to Plochemistry Hon ) BLOGAX, MLBE, DA Tutor a Woman Student Lrpool Str Jan MoUNTOLD, LLA, DLi LithD LD D.CL, Vrou Chancellor L Homme CBE P D D Sa, F.R Prolegor of Applied Ntberada HIV Dom, V 1.0 FR.8 Lyoo Jones Proloco Tb yara CC BXUNTUK WA. HD SD Senior Lecturer in Ihyalokat London IR RONDOM D.Sc T.R.S. Profesor Emento Phyula, Vice-Chancellor DW Loaw LA DIL DCL Tropu. CrHLARI, V.D F.RCP, Chatron of the Academic Cooral and Duo of the Faculty Medico Jr LOCTWOOD, WA, PLD Cutres of the Colleglat Counc and arte Ekbeck Cottere. GL JETTET LLA, DSC, T.RS Contrman of the Univeruity Catrice and School Cotton Council, ad Dtrector Irattuto al Ldration Ma Lou PUDIL, MADLI Trobemor of German, Bodind College und Ion Director Institute of Germaak Lang and Literaturu 11 HAL BLLOT MA Comraomalta Food Tronor of American Imtoty Valvertrty College L. A TDWID, SC, Sab-Den ud AdnKT of Stodir, Taculty of Tatonal Scima km College P Duminan, CRE. MA, D.Sc. (Top) DIN Chairman of Cooroctos (17 December PS VOLK VA, Itepal, Kop' College ( th December ) Vaxhender W NAND Coor, LL, Tractor of Indoned Cod Del Lav od Deputy Vice Chancellor 11 V ISTRS, Fredeo Troco o in H tbemata, G Lurupt LSC HID TRIC Scolar Latte In Cbcoultry Anitant to the lorCouscettor od Totorid Secretary to the Faculty of Bolsa GD Rocura ILS PD, r. Im P Radt in Phyudiod Tator for Poetardante Students to the Faculty of Sokoa. And Cokeria ·Nicho R. L HALLWALD HA, Von Gelar W D Bano HA Vor Pulsat a Coan.I. TYP GOLT B.SO, PhD_Membe a Couml. LI Hm, PhD DBFRS, FoxLP Low Specs Procesor a Phydes od Dopaty Vabancellor H. Pronoun, Ropestro WW BLACK, B.Bo., Ph.D. P.GS, Lacture to Geolog A E. TTI, CDE KALLD Werden a Non Coler und Vic Chipolar G E F CILVA, DPW Follow und Solar Tutor 1 Opeo Collep od COP Leotaru tn Ardent History JA E GWI, OBLKA D.PHL, Fdor Merdeka Code and University Lotne od Demonstrator to Phyun Ry F Wолоор С.А.В Vlco Chancellor JXR, CODUC, V.A FR.NL Processor do md Deputy Ver Chancellor E RADO, DPhl, PhD Pranar a Methanta & For, MA Latin m Agriculture. L M Wurtam, WA DSF R6 Vian-Charcollor WEL Ouvin, M.A.F.CA, Trott. WH.. ANITTACE, VLA Procesor a Edouation, DH PLACOCI, HA, D.8, F.BIC Lachers to Chometry A. W CU D SO FRIC Router (18* Ducho) for SAY GOOI DIVOJ NA W.DLLD J.P Pro-Chinordor and Coatmen at Commal D G JAV, VA Ves Chmellor A. LODHOCI, VA, Ye Chairman of Commal ET DAVI, D So, PhD D Math Proteid Hoed at the Depertoret of Mathemate, uod Deputy Vachelor JEG RAYX M B.Sc, A., Proto md Hdd the Depert- Out of Zoolory. ND Cunur, PhD Senter Lectorer to Chanty Alat der EX LYAN, HLA. B Litt, ProctpelDoruty College of North Wale Buror cod Vice Chancilor J S T'ULTOR NA Pilctpal, Umrority Colcro Str. Hot To Eun, Cara Unfrunty Four COmitt RI DATI PD, DSC, FIAT P Proto of Phylen Untrealty Colima Waken, Aberystwyth IL CH. GOT LA DA FIP Protower of Expert Vatywnty College of South Hue tod Moomoothalt Cart J RoomPhD Seodor Loctro Edwardog, Untreaty College a North W, Bangor XWB, D.PL, Sardor Lecture to becometry Otratty Calot Apothun the Cra ·Uutonty College of the Sad WA / Lyle Enter & EL. VATION L, PD Jamber of Coado de Profour a Edoarthom und Psychology J CALDWOL, D.Sa Ph.D Procesor a Bottay H. L. DOOIT B.Sc., Ph.D PG 8. Lecture to Goolog J Wamno Ph.D F.LS, Lacturer m Boty Ushmenty Cedar Local CH WILSON MA, Poepel E A STEWARDCO, ILSAD Profesor of Phyla LUE IWO, LA Lactors in Cha Ostwinity College Nou Salut. H. DODR HAB.Sc P.RS.A., Vernbar of Commal 8. H DATA, LA, FGS F. Xots Profesor of Geopiphy HF HALLWOL B So, Latino Etattoo L M EuroX LABS LL.D., Ch.B. D.P.H., LL.D. J.P. Amor troo Genl Consell to court E M. WAT A, D Phil Product of Mathemata od Member of Court RV Jov, CB, CBE, MN, LA, D.Th., FIMLP F.RAS Prolor of Natural Philosopby. D. M MacKonroX LA Regius rrales of Narn! Poulorophy C. STOIAN MA Ph.D F. SE Lectura Nutarat Philosopby EA NILATIE, DA, BSc Гъ D TRS. Pralor al Xatorul Philoxophy C D CTILDE, BSc Plot P Seanor Loctora o Natural Tulosophy C. I STEWART MALL BCA Secretary GYO V 31. SMART MA D S TRAS Raporu Trofeuord Artronomy JCJ LITTOED MA Lecturer in Hispumc Stob and Hou Sorritary Anotation of Lactuc od stoti SL Aras LT COTIT IA DSC IRSRepu roker of Mathematto od luarter of SL Suntor cures, 3t Andre DRoturot Duw 1D C B DPI I RCICI RSE Frolar of Anatomy and Master al Qaero CADC, Dude DOW Hafad. E ART DSC SD DIC TLS toutatud por Chupallar FILMA, NA BCL Ironor of Junproduct, Scurtery of the Acorine Coon nd ProTre-Comedor XL oor, Wut I pracolo Scott EL Theox fod PuTTOLAID DSLL, DC, DIL, Protator d Aostomy DSc FRIC Rauder a Cbrmtry ·OTHER REPRESENTATIVES AND GUESTS Amon Uniwy Tucchers A. J HALIY NA Yor-Prodeat Seat Lacto to Math mata, Imps Colga Somco und Technology Univurlty of London) MACY AT LAPAD YP Lat (Lacturer Kather maba, Uurrouty Coires Untreaty of Londos) Rt Hon. Lon COLLIT OF Komar, JP Hoc. General Secretary (Part time Lectura IL London Bchool al Economo id Pontal Science, Unratty Londo) R S. Waun, Crama Sottah Suction factor te Anth Lamar, Uorrety of Aberden) L AOUD RED VA PD D D Litt. (Procar a Philosophy of Edochan, Umvatty of London Lottato d Edoantron) Your BSc F.RAS (Lacter to Appbed Matheuata, Uorway of Lorpool.) A Uxwby Greida Coronati KA H. VODAY B & PUD KA BLI Chetcon Prohor J T BATO, O.BE HA, SCD D.Sc. E IF JAKE LA D.Plui Product W NILITI, BA, Blatt Prufur GW Premioro MA, YB., FRCP Ha J L STOC, BSc. Sir EDAD HALL, KBE CB A, Secretary SW GIEDY OBE D L SORL. WALT ADA, C.M.GOBE BA LID Serdary Iator Uputy Couocl for Higher Ecation on the Coloela BF G Am, BA DepEd, DP.E Semor Loctor Phytal Edonaton, Uartouty of Adelande MCC Hau, ILA, Aut Secretary mustry of Educatoa W D POLOL, VA Roeder to Darwipdy Antrah Naboom! Untroly KE Dulin LA SD PhD FR.S. FRAS Promo o Append Mithouto, Ummorty d Story F C Burn, VA Pro Lodoh, Rboda Umranty Corona B.A. Probeer Poabcal School, Umiroloty a Monaco (Vet Fribought Profesor Utraty College of Wales, Aberystwyth T P DELLOX NDS, Processor of Cheondatry Vertrxty Calen Calvy Netopul Dolmaty a nord LP FOODUN Secretary Coentertain a Work, Uanalty of Mob. & CL FLDTON, CA Pet Stuntry to the Holtry of Edotto Y Forn B.Eng. Php D Frosor of Polo Camara Iuth of I choslog hittag Tathagat Protor Dotty d Cambolen AX ·10 HRF HATOD, A F.BA, Stodet ud Tutor Christ Church od Nobield Red in Internatioad Economia Umiety of Odond. JI HYEOT PhD D.Sc., Prolu od Metbemutia, Unirent ity of the Nittond. OCJ MLA, D.Pml Protonor of Philosophy Uofrenity of Natal H._XL Kra, Secretary-Gen. International Amocution of Umverka B. B Low B Arch NA F.RIBA FRALA Irodom of Architecture, Untreaty of Melbourne. 1 H. McKem LLL, PD Seator Loctorom English Udventy of Nutal H. SW VARIT SILD FRS. Quan Prokuror of Phyla Uunity Colliers, Umreruty of Loodon I NADARJA, DA Pronor of Ln Udvendt al Ceylon. R NIKLAUS, BA PD LIL Procesor of Freach, Umrgulty Collers of the Soath West of England, Euter und Prodent, Amogubon of Voverty Taschen H W Pue, MA, Litt D VITorost, Urverkty of Dublin Truty Colle A A PART MBE, BA, Lada Seitoy Mostry of Edocation. J RIDDIK CBE NA D Litt FRSE Socretary od Tru Carde Trot for the larverkte of Scotland R E Purus, CBE LA D Thul DS FR.S Profumor a Mathcottical Phyta, Ureaty of Birmingham W RODD MA In.D I'rofonor of Enghun, Umvoruty of Bath Calamba AG Rodon, OBE LA DSC D Ed. Asetant Secretary Scott Education Department. Str HAITI ROUVLARI, LA Sensor Chef Lorpector Mmetry of Ideation A SALAM BA PhD Hned Department of Mathematica, Lancity of the Panub (Labora) WA SA DILHOY A Anastant Secretary Mobield Foondation T H bums NCA Deputy Controller Educato Drvoon, dod Director of the Unrate and Adult Education Department, Intuh Counc RICHAND P T YL01 NA Escort Secretary Lata Suta Edradoul Comam the Lanted kudo J WILLIAMS, I'D D LLD Prxcipal, Victoria Uarveruty Colle Uorrenty of Arzuland ror Full Sriwe R. BUTLET CUG NA DCL TSA., Had Blastor Eton College W . J BrutoP CHE, WA, Had Wwtrer Codolpho od Lety School. V IL LITEL, XLA Jnd Hotron, Sethurt Grimur Schod for Garh, Croydon (Lanedute that Irtott, Asoctra of lead War) ·N & Worum, 11 Harathe Dion, Puth Como Secretary of the Jeat Committee for CALMrth Oatrody Interchange) WE ADORO Ph.D Hd Gr Nath London Collegato School Pratt a te wete da lutromo) A. W Pro A PhD. Had Water City Loodoo Scbool Pupatiding for Cottom of the Jomt Eureutin Commtto al the Four Swoondary Asociation) HX E Pam, Se Scolar Phyla Hit North Londoo Calepita School (Predat de Anato d Acetant Watu) 1. Borwe B.Sc., Omulto Grammar School (Prahat of the Asociation of Axtant Mesto) Secretary d Contre-J F FOOD, HA LLD Secretary Committee Woo-China and Punicipal Aanword Senary - LFN HA, DPA. Amda Edu Coafone Praca-I Cam, MA.

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·13 FIRST SESSION FUDAY AFTERNOON, 17TH DECE BAR THE SUPTLY OF TEACHERS FOR MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE Chamon Sir CHARLES Maus, MA, LLD, D.Litt. Vice-Chancellor Untverity of Lode, und Charmen Committeo of Vice-Chancellor md Pilocipal The followtry notes were crculated prior to the contacte A. Notes for Address by Dr E. JF JAMES. Introduction. Urracy of itution and difficulty of proposing solution Problem and of comhty as well u quantity Effect o quality an bradth a dentic education Cauros o shortago. Part of gooenal abortage of skilled manpower But wtry special averaloa to teaching a part of clenco students? A bold for investigation bero. (a) Financial reasons. Obrlovaly partly cosporiblo, yet not the whole Hory (6) Appaal of roarch. In my vrow the most powerful counter-attraction. () Maconceptions about tho ble di taucher It be in the light of the factors that we must airsort wrong measure for attracting young dentist (1) Sabry podtion. Limitation of the Bunbam amando monts. (2) Self-denying policy on the part of industry Aro Il utenti ha ladostry being altably employed? (3) Put to be played by utvendita (a) Propepanda nd advice in ordrerity scence departments by practing schootmestert und by aniversity touchen. (6) Provision schenco come for those catering with urta quantitation How far is this posible? Dulicula and Timotatku (4) Mests within the book (a) by propaganda. (b) by Incrandog the total number askenta by diverstas a bove from its to benefitilcodes and motions at the approach, by tacting the problem of the ady larver ·(5) Other measures. (a) Some scientists are deterred by opposed necessity for diploma in education. (b) tact ing should be a recognised alternative to national Krvice. Taking these two together we might ut any nato secure three years at a young acentists life for teaching, uod many would be permancatly attracted. Condusioa R. Summary of Address by Professor R E. PEILRLS. The long-term problem requires in my veo un locrease in tho total qumber of scientists and mathematicians tuned in tho mrvertities since the demand from industry government service and other employer is not likely to diminish, though the question of their most ellicient use in Industry which Dr Jame nkas, should be seriously cousdered on a short term basls the problem anses o dluding the available graduates m the most allicient way between teachmg und other employDicot during the next few year more must be diverted to touching of the shortage of bood teacher is at to lad actually to a reduction in the number of putable andidatas etering on renco courses at the onlversities. At the ame time one should think of ways of training moro potcatul scientists by a different use of the existing cochlog Poguble short-letm mesures therefore include (1) Students entering the universities without wxth-form preparation in science of mathematics, or with a reduced amout a fuch inining This iovolves for the umivenudes problemes of staff and of the organization of courses. It ako is compacted with the question of educational grants for purch students. (2) The exchange of sixth-form pupils between maler schools or between these and technlal colleges, elther u a completo exchange a for certain subjects only (3) An increased use the "pos" degree course to provide graduates of fullclently high intellectual quality but without necessarily having pursued their fubject to the amo odnoced level us honouns student. Here the mun dilically appear to be the present los prestige of the puss degree, (4) Mame to facilitate the transfer to teaching of szentists and mathematicians now in other employ ment, wo discover bater in Tifo an interest in tesching This would bare to inclodo u urangement by which they could be given credit for their post apertence, which will benefit their teaching, and a recruitmeot campaign imoogt auch people.

·15 On the long-term problem at increase the total fupply a cientists too must start from the question whether thero DOW alt potential atentat a mattomicans who ditha do not enter for univealty courses in the subjects, or who apply for admission to undersities but are not acopted a ful n ther couro. I peat that there still ure schools whech parruado their por proming ppl to go fn for classic courses and. If this is connect, some propaganda far science might belp. It is also likely that some potentually good appland do not now quality for entry to the umiveruty became their school not able to provide an adequato ectenro coure. This would in part bo remeded by the sbort term measures prevlonly discussed. In addition it is important to review the proant election mothods to make sure that no good cardidatos are molesed over their GCE marks Dot outstanding, Amonget long-term maakte designed to makothe teaching profesion moro attractive to scientisti amo should consider an umangonent by which teachers who want to keep in touch woh modem developments in the subject could at certain interval bave a terme letve a absence, to be spent at a utvenilty or similar institution, so that thoy could take part i modern research activitia. All thouo remarks are based on the usumption that tho number of graduate scientists and mathematicians can be Increased to the required lovel. If this should prove imposablo one might have to make some of the proposed short-term metsura moro permanent. In particular it migłu bo arguod that the caristmg manpower would bo pod mort electively i the majority o Hudents catered the untenities at ı lovrer level (the old "Intermediate course) were the same member of anft would tach a much brper number of students than poolble in the school The, boneve t so cantnry to tho present to that it will not be removaly considered * permanent solution unlee other matsoa fi. The CHARLAN It woull bo very difficult for anybody und certainly very dificult for me, to open this fire setion of the conference this year without mytry what a very great pleasure it ba to o to have the hospitahiy the Unirenty a London to ouablo is to hold the conference under puch excellent corre ditions. In general, I think that all of us in the miraria feel at the present time is immense debt of patitude to the Volversity of London for the hospitality which it gives 1. Wo shall have an opportunity die couno o prelog our mutudo, but it is nther citicuit por to mention du tho beginnlag of the confance ·16 The business of the Chairman at the first sesioa Is to get the conferenco potong with the last possible delay Tho con ferenco ba wally extremely good at thk Uniko most conferences. It does not allow long periods of embarrassed lence after the opening speakers, and I am sure that it will live up to los reputation in this respect We are today atraordinarity fortunato our opening spakers. We are delighted that Professor Peleris, who wo know bas gtven moch energy to co Decting datius about the availability of mathematics audents, has come to open the diction, and ouro particularly delighted to be able to welcome Dr Estc James, from the Manchester Grammar School, uod a member of the University Gnots Committee, the first speaker on this very important subject I suppose that there are few objects on which we are to firmly agreed that the situation is very serious and very Important to the univerpties while you were filling into tho room, from the discussion which went on behind my back between the two opening speakers I gathered that they hand both quite ultronconly been looking forward for some year to cooking swords and differing from one another about a number a points which they have in mod, but I gathered aloo that they did not anticipate that they were going to find it very aury to differ from ano another on this afternoon stopac. In any case, we are very grateful to them for comme to open the discussion on a matter which is a tremendous Importance to th I now uk Dr Janar, without further ado to speak to us on the subject of "Tho apply of teachers for mathematics and peace. EJ F JAMES MA, D.Phil. High Master Manchester Grammar School, and Chairman, Handmasters' Conference Tho topic you have mentioned, Sir Charles us the opening 000 this hernoon can. I rappore, bo considered a very appropriate for the first item on the speed of this conference, And, on the other hand u very unfortunate one. It is appropriate because thero are, I suppose, few other questions to Englith higher education that rival it is urgency and it may well be considered as rery pofortunate because it puts to you Hght at the part of your proceedings a problem to wtech I think there is simply no enabtuforward or asy solution It may well be asked, mdeed #bether we are much furtber forward in this matter than were some clatit or nine yelo 490 when some of us were aming attention to it. In ano may I think wire. There is now doch wider ralisation that In eact that is a problem. The shortago o sonce teachers ·17 is the theme of an cradag number almost e monotonou number of speech and report. Tho National Advbory Comal on Scientific Policy tho Science Masters Asociation tho F.BI, the Advisory Comcil on tho Supply of Taschen har all considered it but, thoughtful and interacting us como a thoro roports baro beon, it would be blo to up that any ral solutions bare been proposed and I mot coafers werght away thuat I am abło to do very littlo that has not boon dovo beord. All I can do is to accort I number of mo at approach which, taken together may do something to samo desperito station Now in tho first place, It be obviously unnectenry for me beloro thu rodiero to ay mao than a word or two on the magoltodo of the problem. There and come fortunate schools - and mine is one of them that are happy in their clanco malto although if anyone in this andlenco knom of a good phydda mitor I would be pleased to co hum afterwarde Bat the great majority of headmasters and handmxtrosses know that If they loro a teacher at cience a mathamata bo will be roplaced by someone at lower calbra, 11 Indead bois replaced at all. Wo know that much of the advanced work In our scboobs on which the universities depend I kept doing by men and women a 45 and over In a country and an ago to which our future survival depend on scientific man power tho supply a ruch manpower ban danger of dimmiebing at its source Wo and making a very great effort, laudable effort, to expand technology at the aniversity Lovel, whether wo apud it fn ooo .md at ttution or another but of what use broch aspunson unless students adoquato in quality and quantity urd to como forward to fill the place that we crate? Wo aro catering a new technologlal i rolution that will be dominated by now tochin quas and DOH pources of power What will be the position at this country if the men who should bo the architects at that revolution uro powing up without adequato cience teaching? I am not thinking primarily ibo absolutely Bonate person who can pertaps survive bed touching, us bez bom pran survived to the pest; I am thhiding nither of those sightly low good people wbo without adequate proudlog cannot be expected to face university cound themsetra crowded with new knowledge We demand, and we rightly demand that on entists abould be broud and humano men. I would emphasize that the best hopo o producing auch scent to be for them to be taught Rosenco by pood mlode. It is the third-rate scientist who mod Mikely to produce poplkswbose bortom u Ilmited by three Adnanced kvel subjects. In short, I ay in a seriousness I bmor that ca jone would ·18 that & balmost lo possible to craggerate the evil that may result of the level of science teaching continues to fall, evib for our cconomic future and cultural standards und for the progress of scienco Itselt Before we can cure disease, we have obviously to diagnose its auses To come extent, of course, the shortage of Rienco teacher is but ono uspect de much karper and much more fundamental problem that has not been considered yet us much as it should be Our kind of society makes altogether unprecedented demands on our resources of natural ability d'all kinds, not only scientific ability. It may well be that very complex technological communities will gradually love their Imporus, that we shall rtach a Umit, a state in which we an envtrage but never be able to a plore wbolo new fields of krowledge and progress simply because of tho shortage of peoplo with the intelligence and truning required. This is no short term problem with which we aro faced, u ba chronka condition. Quite apart from that very general question that I have not timo explore this afternoon wo do know that there reem to be special reasons why young men and women of cientific abilly do not want to teach What are thoso reasona? And here I think that our mqortes and our committees have falled. We should, in fact, have inquired much more areully than we have done into these interesting and vital problems of mouve What malo someone want to teach? What makes komoopo not want to teach? The obvion utier al court b an economic one. Young men do not want to teach, we are told, because they an get more money la industry That is undoubtedly true und teachers Alarla are without doubt a very powerful factor but that is not I am qutto cure the whole story and we shall go badly wrong if we thnk it is A scood reason is the appal of research, and bero I believe b a factor of immense power When my friend Dr Birley spoko to the Britsh Assocation in 1953 he made the Interesting sugretion that the reluctance of scienusis to taach might be due to a lack of faith in science. That be very interesting and very arguable part of yow but actually I believe that our problem, at any rato in one upect anes in great measuro simply becawo the young have such a burning halth science. It is a faith symbolised by the magle word research. Of u fields of knowledge science that in which I basiert to acqure the techniques o desconering new truths, and the young men in our with forms, Hghtly and bandably have in ka of themselves us pushing back the frontiers d knowledge in four or five years after they leavo us, uod it is perhaps the most interesting and tho most supnificant feature of the intellectual climate of our ume that ·so many of them will be able to do to You bare not pot to bo frightfully clover to discover rounothing to science-I mean compared with a feld Hiko philosophy The third factor that I think prodoxes o provent conta aries from poco md prejudice I had tho pavilego o peaking kom time ago to the chemistry students u two our greatest miversities about teaching us a career I found among them a belid that tho material ponton and prospects of schoolmasta vero pronto open thun thay ut. I found that we had over played the case of vocation that HIYO word that is mod to encourage people to do something at a glary low than no ought to pay them. They felt that unler i man could look forward to a life dommated entirely by the patter of tlny fect, hko Mr Chups, hors unfitted to bo a teacher I found that they had been deconged from teaching by toucher themselves otten daduonod by service under the lem enbightened boal uthaditios tod by attacks upon the gamer chook It be in the Bgle of these factors that we have got to try to current actul pengra to attract young scientko a good quality as tauchen I want first to say something about the sconomx portion The Burnhum Committee beu dono fine work, and one miret bo full of admiration us one coatemptates its laboun and la fuccenes on behalf of the great majority o tercbent. But in tho mature of things that body works within certain limitations and on tho basis o cortala napumpurons tho asumption that all teachers are amply teaches umle they bappen to teach in techalal xbooks or unverutles the imprespon conveyed to the mods d mny tacha n nummer school that all tenchers aro equal but some are more cqual than others. It bs no part of the Committees task to quodian thoso basic wwmpuany, that could only be done from oatado Tbero an be no doubt, rightly or wrongly and it to facts we and dealing with that the academically guabfied teacher an the grammar school feel that obry pocky on the lefow yaan hus been onjunt to him, that it has touched not only his pocket but abo that mysteriou entity his prestige Honry over estimate the degree of borustice, but it is the feeling commua.cated, us infortunately it has been to tone who mladit cater the procoon that is the determinboy factor It isa lilo uso toltos him that a good lat subunity by generoase of the pool, an pay him a pretty adequate Alary The young graduate must not feel that his futuro depends on the rood wil and enlightenment of a particular ahvation Authority Ho requra a firmar prospect. I la lact tho Burnham Committee amot, through no balta is one partup, destro dequate salas far mummrmbool taschen, ·20 then we must look beyond it, and I confess that I see Do alterative to Royal Commission of something of that fort on the recruitment and payment al teachers which would curry the authority to make the perhaps mpopular recommendations pecesary to deal with a matter of urgent national to portance Secondly I believe that industry must ust tsell some arching questions. It is vital ibat industry should attract fome of our best schendic talent. That we cannot question for X XXL But what we can seasonably urget that Industry should at itself in lus own ultimate loterests wether overy highly qualified scientist that it employs as really doing wort that I worthy of him and could not be done by 1 less hrghly qualified person. When a commodity is in short supply we dare not eveo not that any of it is being mapped and no commodity is scarcer than scientific ablay Art wo sore that there are not being auncted into Industry by the ture of thl, word "research men who mll in fact be engaged in routine and repeuure wort? Thirdly I believe that tho tvorsties bavo a very significant part to play Here again, we know that research b the lifeblood of science, but today to mul, in the light of Dos own caperience, w whether all the young men who are par Ing on at the universities to do research are really u well employed us they might be Hus not it become almost 100 casy to do research It is not credible that many of tho people whore we have taught and know something about will make a significant contribution to cleaufc knowledge. They will not. La them do their modest pieces of hack work by Jl means u part of their education, but let it be clearly uodattood, und ka their umlyersity teachen tell them this upambrouocly that the life of prolonged to search bas dot for them. A positive campala, orocruitment came out by university teachers in their labontories would, I believe, have definito remolo for there is coo person who an influence to youg stence student it is the man whom be respects o a xxcntit hlone! At present the University appointments boards emango laterviews and talks for almost overy klod of career acopt 006-teaching. The value of practising teachen of tho nghe kind to put the case for tho praction. Dot only to those lo education deputments who laro deaded already that they are going to teach, but to all mence undergraduates, bs something that should become portaal This, I believe, would do moro than almost any other solution. It would certainly do more than the other solution which & atico proposed, the provision o elementary science courros for those who have studied us to school. Such late transfer to my aperience, wally only really cllective with the very ·21 ablo porron. By all man let us try it, but frankly I doobt wbether its results will be o gaussctory u ba imetima coppared. For 1 mivendity toca to teach vay elementary cence In general un apendre, medoctoral and Ineles tive way of producing an Indiferent product. Although t l pot directly the concern of this conference, I belicro thero ato certain stops that wo in the school ought to tako, for to como entent the present poortion roparents a clear failure on ou part. Wo have failed to present our own chosen care va girai and at tying one with claims an the best qualities ar miod and character That is disputable It be our business to ce that tho conditions in our xchool uro u good us yo an mbo them, though in the majority of schools that is something which to a grat atent to a matter which is outddo tho power individual tancbers a bead matan It botten contended that the school coold do more to divert faltablo bog fram arts to clence, and the legend - for it be legend ill perdiste that many of the best wcbools comconly decomigo the ablegt boys from a lontific arcer Now goch an attitude s, I think, much nurar than miny pooplo baglog, and I believe that the majority of schools would find it difficult, on groando o aptitudo or inclination, quickly to bring about any considerabito deviation towards scence, thoogh soch a devlation u part of tho chmuto o option in the yo ba undoubtedly think tho Roport of the Advisory Council on Scaentific Policy » to blamo-that any sudden change in policy to the school could as a very npid flow o boys from arts to cerco oven if that wero dennable, I think somethmg liko un ilusion. A much more fruittal line that bu ail to bo explored Concerns the early laver. This is a problem thuat warles enormounly from school to choot, but it Rame that there is Galo doubt that at the age of 15 or 16 there is a nesuge at talent that were it to than in the school, would mako 1 significant addition to our scientific manpower on this problem u report b roon to be published, and no mat hope ibat stops will be taken for cumple by providing larger mara temanco pants for both form popla, it that the way to cuable us to stop this purticular and I should say dgnificant form a Lastly I come to the other practial mediantes that would, I bolove, have deinke results. It should I thok, be made perfectly clour by the Mhistry and by any other responsable bodies that the future prospects of trocher will bo in no way threatened It bo enters teaching with no professional trininy However much wo may deploro uod many of us to imaginon and to some other proposal the time. But ·22 here do deplore it profoundly-it remains as a fuct that many yowg scientists are simply not prepared to face a year in an education department and this applies particubrly to the good ones who may have done a year or two of research. They would rather spend that year to further research or po Anicht into industry Most important of l I believe that cactung for scientists should be accepted u a form of national service, ud thk. I think to the greatest single practical step that could be taken I am utterly unimpressed by those who way that this would attract undesirable recrunts, or that they would be looked down upon by the colleagues. Such Amply was not our experience when we were for one year allowed to recret in this way It did not work bic that at all Taken together at the lower estimate these two measures would give othroo valuable yours of service from many young entst, but I believe they would do far more. Many of tho young men who would come to us for two vean would reakso what many of us know-that teachung in a good school b a great and Ausfying aro with its mphs us grcat as those of the research worker its regarde los tangible but no les real than those of industry They would come for two years, but some of them would say for fo. I have proposed some pretty simple steps that wo might take I have not considered others of a much more radical nature, such as the concentration of sixth forms in special scbook, that conceivably wo may ulumately be driven to, because I believe that at the moment tbcy would present oduatlocal problems and evils and dangers too great to puato tem practical I bave puppested a number of small Densures, not come of wuch in itself would be sufficient to relevo tbc situation Bert takes together takto with the encouncement and support of the academic opinoa of which the universities are tho representatives, I beheve that those measures might do something to mitigato i malo dl affairs that threatens not only the schools, not only the univeroties, but tho community itself. Profesor R E PEMKLS CBE MA D.Phul DSC FRS Profesor of Mathematial Physics, Unrventy of Birmingham LkDi James, I feel that I have only a number of minor points to make, pone of which offen by Itself a complete solution to this topent problema Morcover all these points are not now but have appeared in one or more places in the variou documents dealing with this problem which we have all read. I shall try to grow a few them which appear to me to be a particular importance and I shall try not to repeat the many good points which ·23 Di Juma bas already made, except where I havo como moment to add. I think 000 must be clear first of all about whether the present shortage of Beatles permanent faturo or Whathar it b due to the present npd exponam a tho uto of xsentific mnopone in todity and clowhere Some roporto havo rigested that the shortage may be over in a few yaan. If that was true then, or come the problem would mainly be one of diverting hentuts to schoolteachmg, and afteruds the problem would potre itselt. I believe that thla b not the portion, that the demand for dentific manpower will continue, and that in fact thero ano very many places in dustry and in other professions where people with a good antific truning could be catrtinely vihable. Thero , of COUIT, DO point at present in supporto their recruitment for those parposes, soco it would only granate a situation winch is already dull cult arough. In the long run it b not a problem of diventing adentists (I am locloding mathematicians in that tarin) to touching, but rather problem of rotting more of them, but clarly as loog & thero bi shortage, wo mutt enert that an adequrto proportion a them aro wed for teaching, otherwise wo shall bo losing the opportunity of provning mcsontific manpower for the future. Dr James has aheady reared to the practical short-term mensure a malding provision for Audents to enter tho untverkty who ather have not taken cience to the advanced keval, or whose training has been Inadequate, has covered the wrong branches d science for our porpore, or (I am ufak we have to face the stuntion) who como trom a school where science has not been well taught. I agree with Dr James that it dot cury to opect people to part advanced Renco at tbo mtvertity if they have noter bad an interest mclenco But I believe that there are many people who have an interest la conect, who havo pataps dano como rendimy of their own, but wo could not take a science counso at school, or not the right canct Court, because the cbool mu not able to provide the teaching, a partap beamo u tbar school the course wu sot attractive. For those people an entry lato what used to be called tho Intermediate cour, proceding the normal bonours course, would be tay nhubla Whather this wonld bowme # 1 permanent faturo ano might dispute, but I have no doubt that for the present 1 pater uso a arch courses would be extremely helpful. If this wet dope yo would abo have an opportunity seeing bow it worted and ming up our minds later whether we Mantod to renta k PODcat fatura That would probably be some prea dificulties in carrying out wuch a measure. Oock that the university course ·24 would rear normally four years, and there might be . difficulty to getting the pecessary maintenance grants for the purpose. I believe that the practice of local education authortthes varias very much in this respect some colleagues in other toiversides tell me that they have found little troable in getting gupport for the students for the necessary four year course, but we certainly knox onay ause in which this has proved cult. If local education authorities could be persuaded to bact students for the four year course, hero this 3 Decesary m tho mterests of the students education that might help greatly to making scence cours possible for rtudents to otherwise were not aitably qualified. In this respect ako I have experience is no doubt have many of my colleagues, of pupib commg in from school with very odd collection of advanced subjects. I have met stodents mtendrog to go for a mathematics course who have, for comple, leart pure mathematics and physa but no applied mathematics. thelr third subject may havo been French or misk. When uled by it was that they choso that particular combination they aid "OŁ, I wanted to do pplied mathematics, but our school was not able to leach IL Ono finds other odd combinations. Very often fich pupiba como from schools in large ata where it would havo been very easy to make amigaments for the pupil to get the atna subject at a technbal college (which very otten dooe) or by an exchange arrangement in romo Other school close by or perhaps by transferring the popu for the sixth form work to another school I think it is very important that this should be done where necessary it might be argued that the prestige of the abool would sutter * admitted in this way that i munable to teach a particular sobject; but auchy Fould be all right of thero vero i mutual arrangement, with school A sending certain populas to school B for some gubjects and, conversely school B sending pupubs to school A for others. Wo get this in the univcruitles when one a our students wants to do nearch in branch of tho cubject which wo cannot adequately cover # b a matter of course for us to use a transfer to Loober university It would never occur to s to Forget to the Audent that he should take up a different subrest because we happen not to be ablo to teach what he wants. I think that the schools oopbit to take a smiler attituda Dr James old that this was a mesure which might, it It ame to the worst oventually have to be tata. I think the situation much that is extremely urgent that axchi count bo adopted now in many cux. Of course, there are many cboobs which are still able to teach all the subjects needed by their pupils, but for those schools which cannot do thila ·4 I think it to rently necesary that some auch unangement should be made Apotbar short-term maurire might be to use the foalled degree course. Histodaly I before, the booom Counds wero instituted us specialised cours for people who wanted to tomto rotearch a to the advanced put a tho subject, and cognally it mus Lover Intonded that school teachers should takto boooon de toe. What happened mus that particularly to the inter war yan, when there wus a shorture at job, choo's teaded to prefer the man with tho honom depres and perhaps the momo hooou," which poo higher intellectual quality may have had some thing to do with it. Nowadays, a course, it is rery hard for 1 person to get mo a good gnmnmr school it be only balda an ordinary degree. Thes. Nous circle, becauso sa result of thb pondoo Dobody wbo la botellectinly apable of getting 40 bonoan depres will go for an ordinary degree cours and therdore the employers md the books matunlly regard peoplo with ordinary degrees with some auspicion. As a sbort terra mausoro there is the posebity a people undemn to school teaching to have been in other bands d work. This might be a useful motsure in some cor Very often an interest in educating young people, powing on Information and in petting poopte to no knowledge m the right way come nther Lato in life thort muturity and to experience they have had in other work, would be us Asset in teaching betrovo that the lack of experience in the school routine something that an be made up far by the right people without great difficulty We have the parallel ultuation in the miversities, wbert wo all know of colleagues who have come back to muverdty teaching atter a long period in Industry or in some other word, very at they are genuinely mterested in education, and I am at that they are as good teachers n geleni #s those who have spent all the ufo in a universty The practical manaures that one might take to encoung this kind of trunder are matters which probably go beyond the scope of the conference. On the question of long-term measures, I think that two things are important. Ooc is to increase the number of Rudents who take science courses at the universities. We simply annot po an indefinitely with the present supply, To come alent this popply b Imited by the number a pocos in the matverdila. This was a limiting factor shortly after the war My impression bow is that to Kolto broadly spaling, by the number a boys dod prls who come along with the right background, the right ability and the neht qualifications so that one could not solve the problem by gratis poro-place. Lo spite of what Dr James Aldao this ·10 potat. I believe that there are sott schools in bich papibs are preaed coto ets courses I have persooal apecoce a sochioses, thou hrben De Janes predeces hos st.cment by yog that this does not happen m the good school, be may be mht Hou er I think that the major Lampy Laors that there ure boys and girls who try for dission to a secoce course a contraty odbo anat ett m because either they have not talen subjects at school which fit in with the teaternity conse, or they have not been audiantly all brote In those subjects to thich the standards cecain for admod to the barveruty There we come back to the post that a better supply of food inste s 20 mportant factor but i also mportant to base faalities at the transcrity Land for people to make up at the back. I think it is also asportaat for the converses to refer the selection procedure so sto detect tb- people who have the night quality of mind, who have the ability to do socock, but bo do not sbor op med mtbe GCE ammations because they have been badly taught I think that we cost to look pot merely u be curts thy have obamed (Fe do d course, take many other factors into account already) bat ako, is evahotrz those mauris, ne should bear n mind the kind of tranog hech es preceded them, and other thmos bem qual I would be mort iorpressed with the same mark dame from a school bach 1 regarded as iery poor . its science teaching than I should be de ame from one of the really good schools In the long rm borever I think the key factor is the protge d the lachen Di James bas already crossed this poul and cannot be stressed enoot. The dimicuky m Seoung teachers Los o the fa that teachy s pot la fooral reported by the community to the bght that a ought to be. nha can one do to miro that? Salancs art ceru al u important factor dot merely because of the economic proo.com Itsell, but bo bocanse ibe abry hch cognomsty pass 10 teaches B 3 messure the ropeat which ther series urt held Vay may d our students ch bom se discuss those mutes do not conscioush teard the wlands of lechers as the strongest arturot age a teaching arter bo many d them bare been prejudiced agast tactitrg by the dire of the schoolmasters, bo often tel theor, Whate you do for goodooss ale do not become a teacher " I think that that are the present positica about sabuns plans a Yay large part Be mos be ardul ako to mate post that the professica a toucher Barded really the one that The predhon bos boca neck, for campe, dat e sboold tooase the supply a lechers by being more robotite m ·27 accepting pooplo for tosearch, and that the borderimo ausa toolt bo firmly told that they are not do starch but should go into school teaching. I a think of for things more certuin to Into direpoto. I find otten that people who uro doubttal pondo por teachool and to bring touching about their career po long to como baterview with a prospective employer a with tho ypatatments bourd cod come back : Htilo decoonged and Ry "It does not look u there aro uy good chances a my getting Job I um frakt i mot be retching for me" When people have the attitudo I generally regard it u my duty to prou them not to po indo touching but to reo whether after all, there is not the might blod o fob for them absorbert. I do not think they would make the right part a tachar What womst do b fred more of the people who feel that tonching interestmg (there aro como a them, fortunately) Rod gieo that view to more people. I do not think that wo want to encourage the second-rate people to go into the wchool. There are plenty of routino jobs for 11 kinds of scientist in industry, and that is whero tho pooplo of the lower Intellectual sandardı belong thoy can bo extremely useful and happy there. The people abo annot get a job in modurry or a rosearch fob became they are not bort fint mnough, or it thoy an get a job will not settle down happy to do it bocatore thoy cannot do it well enough, do not protent a solution to the problem of the shortage of teachers; for it be question ultimately not of the number of teachers, but of the mumber of good taucher There are some measures that can be taken to make the pocktion the teacher more attractive and the life of the teacher uxore Interesting. The attraction of research has been mentioned. I think Dr James & Nghit wa bo say that wo must make it clear to people that tocarch don not any bave around it tho glory that it so often bus to their imagini tloo They must know that a rearch men they would often merely keep in touch with what is going on, and contributo a llule blt to the fund of knowledge, nther than start any decoreries on their Own Tho fob of a schoolteacber might well comparo with this in atto cross if it werd tado ay ubo to koop in touch with modern developments, I think tho matou alther ordreber comes ou I would liko to put tt, the posibility of an oromal lave of abronco from school which could be spent to doing work to a cuiretty department would be very valuable opportunity Thibe Toald not involve arginal research leading to discovena, bocuse the time would be too short but not with the people in the intensity libontory to bring the testar op to date LA 800 countries hwbloh the prostire of the schooltander ·10 o the community is very much higher this B a part because uts made harder not anet for man to be a teacher for campk, I believe that Sweden there are certain posts to science teaching m boots roughly corresponding to the position of a senior science master-for which one mig have not only done tomversity research, bot qualified us a mhealty lecturer only people with the stato di testy lecturer uro cligible for those posts. Or course, those posts are adeqmicły pod but that s dot the only pool they are regarded as a sign of distinction and are hard to get, und it k for that reason that they attract more of the quality he would Ide to attract among our scboolteachers My last point that everything I have and is based on the Lssumptron that by some of these measures we can ultimately increase the supply of scientists to the required level. If that B Dot so, then we must reorganise the work in such a way as to reqtare foner people This might take the form, us DT Junes surpested, of reducing the number of scientos in modustry but I think one rould also baie to query betha one could not be tener lenchers more economically and more efficien ly by combining permanently some of the suxth-form teaching from the smaller schools to larger unuts. These might be the new kind of centros which have been surested. ar they might be the first year courses in the unrtraitla. though cuber d course, would call for a great deal of reorganbation. The CHANTAN We are fortunate in bevog presenta number of mited posts in addition to the delepates from Universities. In particular we have beadmasters and bead mistresses, and other on stars and mistresses from schook. and ako vattoo from Commonwealth und American univers ties. It b la the tradition of the conference that we welcome, und indeed more than welcome, imarts from the guests at laust us much as from the delegates from mirersities Professor W M SWART (Glasgow) In the remonts that I thall make. I shall rder to Scottish actools caly Through the kind offices of tho Royal Society of Edinburgh, I have had to povilege of visiting something like fitty xboots Dorth of the Tweed m the last two years, and I have had first-band apertence of the dificultia that ne bare been descusing this utcrnoon. It is true that on the Scottish universities there is a sportage of students gang in for taching, but pandorically cough. 1ccording to alculations I bave been maling. there is not a mated shortage o mathematics teachers u tbe present time - perhaps this applies to some extent also to menice teachers.

·17 What happens? When an aducation uthorty dincover a Art-nato tescher it mata him i badmaster and thu promotion cuta bit off from teaching straight my In ult tho chook which I wbited, from north o Aberdeenshiro right down to the Salmy I met only two headmasters who taught at all, and they spent a Titilo o two boun a day on the evengo in taxching I think that is a mog deplorable utumtion. In the great ate and in great education authority centres badmasten har very little statou I an quote kaal largo edoatian authorities were the bad master over cop suited for cuample, about the appointment o ha uktanto, That, again, deplorable. Many headmasteri tell me, and I um sure they toll other parents, that they Inlet on their own chiktreu avoiding the teaching procedon, and if this attitudo ba general, Hb Dot murposing that there a urcity d entrants to the pracodan Dr James and Professor Peterka referred to protipo I am sure that, whatover the prestige a tho taching protection was twenty or thirty youn ago It is ever so much lower ut the present tumo. fake tho avenge hadmaste Ho doos Do teaching ho has a large number a forma to fill up m the course of the day he has all sorts o fiacky rito duties connected with milk and what not. How can ho be aspected to run a school officiently? I wou a a school os recently u bau Tuonday giving lecture. It is a secondary scbool having between 1 000 and 1.200 boys and girls. It has no assembly ball, and the only way the handomster an make himsel board or known La by an Inter-com syrtam. When I wu there he addressed the school. His voice was known to the children, but I would not be surprbod if ball the children fallod to recognise hon in the flash. I think it is cruenttal that, where tboro uro these conditions, they bould be altered praight amay No wonder the young people in the riveruities regard unfavourably ibe, predloge the coaching profession Dr Jame dared to the appeal of tearch. I do not think that is particularly yold because the best studenta in to universities who 40 pood acts for mosearch hodin utvendty walls, the higher branches a tho Alvi Servico. ar Industrul firm. The very good cond-chan bonous man may on very infrequoat occasom, bo a very good resourcher -I have known one or two of that ked-bat, poenly speaking, the word research is ono that we ought to avoid to the connection Both Dr Juma nod Procesor Poets hero reded to alerta. I think that one my h which the prestige of the teaching proako oright be greatly improved, and a my by which many misapprebemions a porable estant to the ·I 30 profesden might be removed would be to adopt the same Tyuten u we have in the miversities We have funior lecturers senior lecturers, randers, professors. Why not bare 1 omlar system in the teaching profession, with grade of junior sentor and principal teacher and headmaster promodon berg by ment and senfonty? Dr James mentioned the part of the univerzites in regard to propaganda In the Scoufih umiverunties a young man can get i honoun degree in mathematig und astronomy have not a very bargo number a bodour student ach your but if they ak my advice I tell them that thbs & the time to po in for teaching that here is a golden opportunity created other um verkty peoplo might adopt thb attitudo as well One thing that deten many young people from going into the teaching profession the poster dosto year which honours students are forced to spend to training collego Students tell me that although m000 or two courses they got omothing of real value, much of the time a reprded wasted It is qulte possible that one tam would be milicient for the purpose in vicw If the tnining period were drastically curtalled, I think that no deterrent would be removed Without thu compulsory training year the Scottish Education Department will not recogniso us valld any application for a post to a school orea professor however eminent, woald Lall to Atby the authorities us to his competence. Dr G B JIFTERY (London) Having listened to Dr James and having agreed wholeheartedly with everything that he and with the coepitoo two sentences, it would perhaps be a Untlo ungrateful I and too much about those two centence. Dr James, us 1 Alexo graduate old give us an cumple de very fine leron It was well spoken it was heard the argument aume over clearly and forcefully and be left us all I thunk, with the sense that be was presenting to us the conclusion of a Nocere and and thui, Sir B a very good specification of a good lewod. And it wu given to us by i rience mduate. The power to do that kind of thing is not poarted by all science montes even gaadinta in sclenco of many yan sanding and aperience, ud i Di June thinks that our mduates in cate, u they leave our Univer tre, hare ar an carly equire without insistance the kind of gilt that be desplayed I think the ought to disabuse him they cannot. I think that this particular point, which I Im not going to labour furtha now us on direct appics tion to this problem In the course of this term I have written personally iddietrod ud oned letter to 500 undernduates in peaco ·31 of this Unratty who will be taking thar final degree caminations in oonce ned gummer und in writing to than I did the best that I could to stato procurely the cow that De Juma sated to w for tho claims of the teaching profesion I would Iko to think but unfortunately I have no ondeoco ut all that that effort is going to produce u much a half . dozen people for tho teaching of Klence in our school bat H has landed me with a certain amount of mort interothy correspondenco, for some of thoro youngsten have written to me fairty frankly and fully the balanco d argument in their minds as they are facing this very important question of tho choice of aureer I am left with no doubt at all that on the major dificul ties at the root of this butcm & tho Hnd of thing that he ald day by day in our centific laboratoria in our own omvenda It ald, oooo gromd or another to the young mckentot. Do this, do the other thing it all these thing fail, it least there may benchimg." There aro cicepoxcos to that rule, but from all that I know that to what we, u universities, are doing towards this problem at the moment. Wo are actively dipoonglos young Kentista from arder of teaching clence in the schooke That not, I think, furt # matter of rottled fudgmont, much as a matter o mal.co. * I became tho teaching proferden bas bocopy, in the ye of umfverdty people and of entific people in this country peny protestion which it overy easy to enter it is easy to go in for a fow months while hoptog that the right job with tum up I think that this vuod question of thuning hu romo baring an that, and I will diapoto with Dr James in other place whether the training we do the right kind of training that is neither hero nor there But I praction which bau verlous job in Ho and which requires adequate preparation belare you undertake it, to one kind a profesion lo tho os of a young man a young woman, i pratension which is always there was a place at dugo if you cannot prouehing cho b un catireh duttorent story. Therefore, far from attempt ing to meet this very mave national emerpancy by making it caster rod anet to ploto the taching praction, I belicto that b the very root a good deal door trouble Our difficulties will leased to the degree to which wo are ablo to present the teaching procesa u arxe d high responsibility and no requlag now preparation Professor BRYNHOR Jones (Auth) When my mhrority allow me the freedom I am a chenkt. I ouphi pataps to add two other things about poet, dnce they have bearing on what I have to ay to this discussion Many manns up !

·took the diplomu cours la education, and I started chemistry ut ceventoon Di Joma has urged that science professors should belp to recruit tanchers by speaking themselves to the students about the vile and importance of teaching u prolasson For socio year I have done this with my finalists, and it may be at interest if I try to fummarise some of the mprosport I have formed from decussions with pome bundreds of students. la his address Di James has attributed the aversion to teaching on the part of whence students to three reasons AS to the line of these financo-be is right lo aying that this is not the sole nor ideed the main deterrent the initial alary dla science teacher today dot very different from that at a young graduatom mdry or in one of the Government Research Establishments. The recent improvements to the Alaries of teachers have substantialy reduced the old duter ence, but the maximum to which the fientia in mdustry aan generally she remains at much higher level On the financial side it is this more than the loitial glary that acts us deterrent today It is true, u Juma has and that the appeal rescarch * Arong There is about scientific research today a sense of glamour- und I tho that word in its best senoso Durmg his degree work an undergraduato is given an insight into tho most recent advancou in hu subject, and it is perfecth natural that ho Kbould be keen to join in the search for Door koow ledgo and for new map of apolyog antog knowledge. The two or three yean spent working for a higher degree in a university Laboratory can be very stimulating one to the young mduato for in addition to the feeling that be a working oo the frontier d at land 000 brunch of his subject, many a young man derives great pleasuro and action from con structing and handling delicato and preche apparate. To pomo degto the amo feeling is experienced by many RAF pillou bapte what has been ad this attomoon about the appeal of research, it is nevertheless something which the universities must not belittle or weten, for surely one of the prime functions of a miversity s the production of scholars. It has not infrequently been implied in recent months that the universities allow too many graduates to embark on a period of research training, thereby reducing the number that po in for teaching I doubt whether many of these young men od women would enter the teaching procain cven if they Wro not accepted u reach gudents. The majority of them look to Industry and to the untradies for the future employ ment, and from the side of the trenuky must be raused that it is anticorely dificult to decide on the bush of pedom o in ficat degree oambatha, which a number a ·33 porable resourch gudents are the one most ikely to develop into the able und ndepeodant marchan that the country peces in this bighly competitive ere. More often than 6 almod, those who do not show promise of developing into original woteo uro advised by theft mpervisors to thimk al other forma d amployment at the end at the first or second year A great many godents an industrial firms bochtro they offer opportuolies o retearch in a vurdy a ficklı Many expect to be engaged on fundamental problem, aly to find that they are onpaged an importigation of the routine kund Industry should appreciato and one more attendrely the third-cho radutor bo with able and intelligent lader dipuro capable of backing many d tho problems that ewalt solution in the Indoprtal field This would leert bap to the better distribution and employment of the mort able men. A powerful deterrent with many students today is tho fecfilag that the schoolteacher to the country puron, hu lod protipe. I am not thinking bero o school filo Manchester Orammar School, but of our souler grunnar schools where the shortage d science teachen bs most scute The loss of prestige arbtes in part from the present aharies (aspecially the maximum) but it alao arises from the fact that in recent a the countrunity at large ho Dot show any viable and genuine appreciation of the services of the schoolmaster the con aldloos of service at scence teachers to many schools often helghien thar deprandon. Liko Professor Smart, I have been to many school recently and, wtullo I found that runo had prodern, well-furnished Labontores, others bad ok and inadequately equipped accommodation for practical work. In far too few xhools are there laboratory outants, and a science teacher feel that he has to do everythrog ungle banded. Without addance bo bus to prepare the operiments and, at the end of the day he has to chaar the laboratory aod often met op Dow demonstration for the folosing day compared with the solentiat in industry the toolteacher be here under great dadvantage I aid arter that I startod chemistry at scventeen. I should no to at the books whether in view of the present abortege of science teacher, abs really doc to start teaching science to children at eleven. Many tience andates in my aparienco aumnot contemplate return to the schools to teach to most juntar forms, and their reluctance k understandable. After some yan na may department ha constant tooch with a npidly growing conce the prospect of teaching jumlor forw na call town far removed trom a univudty centre or a good cvic library and under the conditions I lave ·mentioned, can only be faced if the maduste is aceptionally mterested in the form. I sbould like Di James und abens to consider very seriously wbether forence tetching could not be done more oficicotly und u led with more abfaction to the teacher if it were started at foarteen. At this age the chakre would have more developed młods, they would have had more time for their non-cientific subjects, and the years lost to science could be redeemned by teaching at a greater tempo Professor Jeey has replied to De Jumes comments on the value of the diploma m education As a scientist I should like to ay a few words in support of some measure of trang In the art of taching I am fore that the great bulk of science graduates indeed the majority of all graduates today-camor immediately on graduation teach diectively The need to spend a year on cach course has not from my observations deterred many from entenag the teaching procession. I am not muggesting here that all is well with the diploma course. nor that it is not apable of improvement might in the present emergency be shortened and intensified but because of the high degree of specialisation which there is no morversity science teaching today tho diploma course is of value for that it emphaskes other aspects of life and prepares graduates for the teaching profession Why should it be assumed that the art of teaching can be acquired without some prepantion? Professor Smart spoto about headmasters in Scotland In England the mapodty of our young scienco Andmates contrue to bebeve that the prospects of promotion to bcadanie are less rosy than those of their arts colleagues. If the under graduates could be convinced that the scientit Hood an equal chance for promotion us beads tos poctors, and directors of education then ut lag a number of those who now take up industrial pops might well becomo teacher Tbc CHAIRMAN DI Jumes, who is having a chancteristic day has to make a speech in Manchester this evening and I will give him three minutes to comment on the discussion to far before going to his train DE EJ F JAMES, I replying to the discussion, said There are two or three point I would do to clear up. Tho first concerns the training year I would bato to głye enyooo tho Imprealan that I mus attaching the dea of inlong for teachers. It ru very klad of Dr Jeffery to my that I had given a good lesson. I bare no doubt that I could have given much better lesson if I had ever had any trattos usa tetcher! What I am trying to do is to state a fact. However moch value ono my put on the training of teacher, I know ·chaps who have done one year's research to get a M.Sc. ar two yan to get i PID id they ay * No I am not going to do that is training." That is all Thoro uo man who might bo nalabte. Ono may blame them for that attitude, but it is a fact. Of course me here got to go on with our training a teacher, ud me humo pot to po many scienthus to undepo it up an, but we mig giro a loopbok for the oddity, who is otten a pretty good oddity too who I hits remarch, who was to po into a mbool but who is not propurod to face that your I want a bo to clear up a mia pprehension about roarch I am steering a very toddy come here, for I do do casctly want the univerzita to ay to a cap, as they hard and fur too fton, “You are not good enough for research, so go and bo tacherI do not want auctly that. On the other hand manifestly there are some people who are very good retourch workers, they will end up u Fallom a tho Royal Society and a that. It ha no good aaying to soch a mm. Bo a school megter "--because he will not be. Ho a very gifted cntkst. and it bao mo saying that to him. Thoro art, bowover people who are quas mood croogh to do ono o the bit of research that people do for en M.Sc. are PhD let them do it and regard it us a valuablo part d their edocation, but let them also tako i os quite a normal thing for them to be schoolmasters in the end and not feel that those wonderful years of research have beer, as it were, usted anles they go Into LCL It is possible to dny a lino balween tho really food man who meet at all cost be kept la research and tho pretty good men often with very pood qualues of chanter and tarty docent mind, wbob not ooginal and pover mD bend this is cutoblographicall-who ought to be a school matter Tho third point with which I want to deal is the age of marting. Prolanor Bryamar Jonas nosed a very bicreating question to which I would not like to stvo a dogmatic Antwer Of course, to many of our best schools we do start bona on mclence at fourteea. That is precisely what some of tho preat independent schools are aiticised for doing by the Advisory Councl on Scleotific Policy Tboro rcbook do produce very great scientists. Only pretty intelligent chap could begin chemistry u the 40 a 17 and do it well I dy that quito Innkly and honestly because i b true. Prolavor Bem JONES (Awd Imus thinking of 14 Dr JAMES: Thoup of 14 might do But lat na itulember that your concerned with a lot of yomgeters in malata od mmar school all over the country oumdoe proportion of wbom lave ghool 15 16 boy porn to Ho deco ut much ohnt to might do if he do Dot start him an ·346 scence till the age of 147 Betucen tho o of 11 und 13 the boys are very scientifically minded with in Interest in jet alrcraft and space-shups, and so on It is a good use to cush n on the wonder and the excitement of discovery I am pure that ro are catching a lot of boys for science by teaching them what we all general prende ut the age of 12 a 13 and they love domg It Although I would hate to be dogmatk, I think po should love many of them if it were to postpone the teaching of science to them tmul they are 14 Of course, we may have to do that. It B one of the revolutionary ways of eving scientific manpower On the other hand some of the clance gradata we are getting now in only quipped to teach children between the uses of 11 and 14 anyway! Dr R BALLY (Eton College) I think that we ought to realise that wo ve med and thoroughly lo a vicious crcto be this matter It has all the elements ou viciam crcle. The fewer teachers we get the fewer boys and girls will be taught to bo sclentkets and we shall set femer teacher, and po 00. It has are particular cign o' vicious circle, and that b that we may a very great many thing on which we all agree about it, but that does not seem to make much difference To give one cumple, it was progested that it ought to pertando moro of the really able boys to go on the science rather than the arts side. I suppose that we all ralio that will not do the least food for the purpose of this problem, because If u do that we can bo qutto certain that they will not be science teachers. In the same way if we try to introduno a lower quality of science teachers in the school, I we go for pos degree men, we can be perfectly certain that able boys will not want to learn science. I then, we are faced us we are, with a vious circle we have to consider that there are, I supposo, two way of dealing with it. Ons is to break It vroleatly from outside by doing something which is quite revolutionary I do not know whether it would have that efect if for oumple, the alarla a clenco misten to the grammar schools were doubled Something like that, I purpose would be necesary though, of courto ano realsa perfectly well that for political and for other reusons it would be quite impossibile. I do not think we should go or certain suggestions which have been miedo and which u any nate might help to tide things over for time I hope that two progestions made by Dc Jina l be taken seriously The first is that futuro rence teachers should not necessarily have to spend a year taking the diplome of education. It es not necesary u al to feel hostile to the diplome to think that that is not otsenthal Wo all bow that it u sopping able poopte becoming wcience ·tauchen. I hope ako that well comander although in voor Ways it is dotastatutos It is to me the possibility of thoso #bo teach ciance being compted from the two yees national CIVICE. I an take that attitude myroll only because I know quite well that those young men will not, ti fact, terve in the Ammy the Navy or tho Al Forco if there is another war they will inevitably be used u centbui, It seems to me that ft would be possible to find some way by which during tho hokday they would spend a certain amount of the propadog themselve for the kind of entific work that would be ncoded d them so that they would #lilled that they were doing FOTO kind of training for national service. I think that would belp the problem but it would not do more than just belp for little whilo. I am also wholly hn favour of postponing the beginning of science teaching till the 100 a 14 i mupporo that became I come from the kbd of school where that is perfectly normal I do not think so much to paired by starting at 11 ud to the present desperate circumstanra tt soetta to me that that an obvious econotay but it would not solve the problem. The other way one could do something. although it would tako much longer be by danging the whole atmosphero which has created tho vicious circle. That, I um auro, bo what will have to be dono la tbc eod and Dothing che il solve tho problem. I will give one oumple of the End of thing I have in mind. I think you have to consider fire of all what in fret it that makes a man want to teach. It & much too difficult and complex a question to go into now but I know of on able you chembe who has been recured recently by a largo grunmar school. They played theu fiah with catremo care, you can imagine. He wu engaged long beford it wu known what can be would get in his honoun degree would have been foolish to have waited mul then He wanted to teach la school, and he related very considerablo pre puro from various largo firms which wanted to scuro bis service a research chambat I have not the lout doubt that the mln ram wu that bo had roved box In his colleto boat and bo mu going to a school were they had rowmy If ho had found out, what be probably did not know that the very harmless rounding boat alle Lansbury a matter of fact maski LCL I doubt whether the achool would have got bim! Whether you think that is a good reason or pot b pertaps Deither bere pot there, but it is one of the curious feroak which will mako man decide that be wants to become a teacher ind I do not think ooc an lore that kind a thing Atter at the peat chasslal und Historical techar o the poft might weh have been the kind of people who had caly been interested in rescuch, they pave up but because I ·38 support, they were postiostoly concerned about seeing that other people became interested in clasics and in history That & the End of person wo mant That is why I believe tbcro rally b a certain kick of faith in the subject on tho part of science teachers. It seems to me that to shop I real faith in your subject you not only not to study it yourself because you find it Interesting but you will ako want desperately to mko other people interested in it as well. There is not only lack of desire to teach, but I certain bact of mostomary spirit among scientists which I read a very significant, and soome mays perhaps nther dnlster I believe that the whole nature on the teaching which we give scientists in schools and perbapit not for me to spat about that bo to some extent in the universities has a great deal to do with this It k very largely because the education we give tbem is locvitably things are now otten to extraordinarily marrow that they do not become the sort of people who woald want to become teacher. I have no doubt that bronder educatoo and a more hurdano education for many scientists to many grammar schoots would do more than anything else to the cod to muko pome of them mot to become teacher I have no doubt that s partly the responsibility of the schools uod things have gone wrong It is no doubt partly tboy wbo are to blame, but I am certain it is also the responsibility of the univerities and that to some extent thay are to blame. Before we begin to tacklo this victoos circle, we shall have to tacklo another one, and that is the continulog demand for more and more highly specialised wort in sexence on the part of boys and girls willo at school if they aro golog to get into the waternities. If that could be dealt with, I should think that oventually wo would have dealt with the problems of the science teacher Professor H A. HEILBRONN (Bristol) There is one thing wbich *0UDIversities an do to Improve thus situation without outside help. I am referring to the general science degree with honoun. My own university Bristol, bus ruch i dhe tree Londoo has it, and other varersitze have it Before I come to this conference I looked up the figures of recruitment to science teaching in schools. The results are wiking. Of the preocral science Hudents who had obtained un honours degree, 25 per cent. Woot into actioolteaching of the special school honours degrees, 8 per cont. went into schoolteaching The lesson is obvious Wo moogt try to recrult moro students to our pencil science courses tieso these coarta alst. Another argoment which influences my yk on this is that pe bare found that we cannot find many applicants for the ·Special tool alth pitable qualificadons boyond those whom we aan tako. We have found that in parent clenco wo could cly treblo the number of receptascos i no had the places Avuilible The ball point, but it is one that many on could do somethlog about Immediately Dr P DUKSHEATH (London) The most apricant factor In the problem of the shortage of Kance tachor today by its complexity for its wide mteret hus mrolved mumbar of different bodia concerned o finding the solution. Primerlly 20 educational matta It has such dangooo impliatows to Ludustry that the Federation of British Industries rocantly beaamo activo nettmy ap. committee o Industrial and aducational representatives to po into the whalo problem. They pued a sport which we hopo has had come mducn.co 00 viewi m thila tiad. The rrus opinions which have been orprerred and the radodla Agreeted bavo often carried the problem from one #phero to another backwards and forward trom tho Ministry of Eduation to the Ministry of Labour from department to depertmat, from the diversities to the chool. Wo have beard the ugain today The problem apoct. on the one hand, employan, the LEAL, the governing bodle of college, and indmural boards of management, and on the other band the employees, represented by the trado unloos of teachers and we teachers Associations while therefore, the conference is obviously primerly concerned with the unlreruty aspect, I am couragod by what hu been cald both by the opening speakers and by Dr Baloy to bellore that the problem wo abould discurs here today b a Hitlo beyood fuut the elect on the umivendtias, It bs for thome raras, therefore, that I wous plaid to bear reference to national kiyice. I ako very interested to bear Dr. Jame prest that posibly industry could contribute quite a lot by using its sexentists Dort profitably ad not taking from the pool nilable more than was absolutely Decessary Pertups hoon that spect that I an contribute Do# to thl dlacuskon, because I would liko to point out ronne of the real difficulties that to dustry bus today in con tobuting in this way FIT, I must emptuste that lodostry i dot prabod by ooo committee or 000 counci which could arrive at some desinblo method a procedure and then promulgato lla docisions to the whole of todastry There are loro DOMETI The home of Ideer Texcher Report Coomor SOP by faolio of a catena corrued by the Horation of Beth Lodutria. (P.BL Loodan, 1954) ·40 a autonomous bodlos each employing scientists, cach od paying what ages it thinks necessary to secure thebt krvices, and providing conditions of employment more or less attrac trve depending on the economic position. Further wo munt face the fact that in bridustry there is no general acceptanco of responsibility for the shortage of science tacter rather us ono pod about, one bears that the educator should be educating for society with and that us society has become completely dependent on the apptation of science, any fallure in the structure for teaching cicace la a falure of the cocational system. It la view which I belnt canvissed widely in chrdes whero it is sof rested that brdustry should give assistance in meeting the urgent station There are many other difficulties m Industry which must bo considered by anyone in these other fields of interest who ay that todastry most help by doing this or dome that During tho part two or three yeant industry has been protsed by Hatements from the Natroanl Advisory Council on Scien tific and by FBI documents to use more and moro actenusts, and it is quito imposable to go into rover a much • policy in the porlod avilable for meetlag this arba Further there havo been much rapid developments in the application of forence throughout Indostry that the regulo ments, even had this prosent problem dot arisen, would still haro been far beyood the anulablo supply of scientista. I defer therefore from one speaker who seemed to viaulio this problem u beng short-term probleon. It is not. The ahortage of scientists in Industry will continue for many decades to come. Tako ooo lodustry for which figures and published widely tho decuriod to dustry In that industry theros regular 8 per cent o pansion orery year and it requires far more scientists of the necessary Alodard than It is able to recruit As ao todation of what happening on a world bad, tharo is at the present time to this country 10 acent from one of the Dominious looking for 150 mclenco graduates required for an engineering project in that Dorotokon. There have been other cases of this kind, and it by an important matter for coasderation when we deco.se the question of Alaner. It may let lodustry restrxt it alarles to us to mooongo Deathtu dot to go oto industry but to ro into taachilog the torult would not be that at all. Any who were discourged from going into Industry would abroad or foto other felds of activity not into low peld teacbby I have taken the opportunity recently al conodering como spocinen Alarla paid to statist midnates in this country id ono very glicant thing b tho wido variety of treatment ·being ucarded to these peoplo by different industrial con can I found that in wht amplas taken over quito broad nuage of iodastry during tho truntog period that coming Arnight from the boirauty for a period of one or pomo as two yan the young men are being paid testing ularla of £420 to £600 and then being odered int posts starting from £470 to £1,200 You may By I have proved that Industry is not rary likely to help by discounding dentists from poing bato mdortrial employment It u interesting to pots, however that cartain individual concerns in industry today aro dotag something to this directhou. A tow firms ko at the procent time dilluting that high-grade scientists with technicians, not because they are convinced that hero is a good aum, but from sheer accealty One form set up rome very expensivo olccking plot in this country and before the plant was completely installed crary single cientist had left tho job to go abrood, and much of that plant, costing largo come of moocy running into millions of pounds, so being run by nw recruits from the chenuflc courses at tho univerzity I have quoted these instances to lodicate that industry is Itoch having a difficult time, and it is nathar inopportano to ur industry to do much to the my of belong to the problem. At tho amo timo, como frms are relouxos xclenuste on Saturday morning to teach in the local frammer school. It is clear from what bas been and this afternoon that many of you would not condder they would be very good teachers, and probably many of them aro notbut it does Indicato a willingnem co tho part of industry Fally I want to refer to the question of modified national service, because to my oplolon and in the opmłon of many peoplo with wom I have discurod this matter this afcri tho only quick moduloo. I quote from a letter to the Mmister of Ediation written as long ago as May 1954 and polnted as 1a appeodly to the F.B.I, sport The committee feels that the adnintage which deler meot oder could be obuloed in anuch moro Atxfactory muy by limiting tbo period of tuu-time National Service. The committee that lort recommends that gudoata la cenco und mathematics who undertake to teach theo subjects in school and bave obtabood puitablo appointments should be pated release at the end of the period required for base Service training The committco beled the propool in romody which could be applied afectively and without delay It conld produce number one to time for tho tutumu oprains of the tools this year from moup home maty mpat to Serdats al tonik prorkdo controly treun for u lony u dasked."

·42 That quotation provides further evidence in support of my general argument that this is a complex problem, and its quito uscloss to try to solve it in tho unfveryties alone in the scbools, in industry in the associations of tachers or in uny other restricted sphere. It lavolves, I believe setting up somo senior over riding organization which can congder the problem in its entirety We are to often told wben we somrest solution, “Ya, but that is not the wbode uory” because in the purticular field in which we are discusing the question We are omitting como problem in some other related field I think that we must find some way of bringmg together tho ministries concerned, the schools and the universitia only by ruch means an the problem bo solved lo stata manlike mander Dr CL WILSON (Owens Belfam) I have a certain bertation in speaking to this conference, because I know that a great many people who visit us in the North of Ireland think there is not merely one great gull, but many great gull, flued between us and our colleagues in Great Bruin And there aro Indeed certam uspects of this problem which are not completely common to the two country For example ono funds that in the North of Ireland there Dot ftrictly speaking a shortage of science teachers but when the point us pressed it mug be admitted that there be shortage of good chence teachers. In other words, we are only one stage of belog bn the same condition that exuta in Great Britain and by and Largo we are mardly putting people into teaching when wo aannot get them in anywhere also. It seems to me that in getting good men into science tacting thero to two problems, problems which have already beco referred to repeatedly the problem of finance and the problem of march. Non Northern Ireland, tho salary vaales at the top so far as I can pathet are slightly more attractive than they are in Great Britain they are slightly less attracted at the bottom of the sales From talking to students u adviser of studies, I am afraid that the financial problem is by far the major factor lo most gudents minds Undoubtedly teachers claro compare unfavourably with the companblo rewards In Industry But the problem of research to wilch Dr James reared, to one that should certainly bo take into account abo. The Regius Professor of Astronomy at Glasgow ord. I believe that we should not think of research in coancation with prospectivo or actual teacher. It may be that it is not so asy to do research to let u my utronomy in a bool but n my own subject, chemistry I think there is a coarder able opportunity for mulla pucea of remarch to be curlod ·out to schools, to collaboration with the loal universities, I tho frolitics Ltd ponied for the teacher From tumo to tico I baro rabed this question, both publicly and ponately with tacten n Northern Irland They havo alwayı ald that it sounds lovely but they have also abown that they regarded me ou completely werty-oyod idealot becauso u they point out, they have saither the tuto por the apparatus to do tho research. My is to thou has been that, u for us the appuntos ad laboratorla uro concurned, in many cua to chools have better abontorles than tho mizernity This may bo criting to come attent but not to ach i grant axtant it the moment. And in any que there are many problems in my owo object on which rakearch can be arried out with a very omall amount of equipment A greater problem is that of timo. Teachen who aro oczupled by thetr teachung datles for perhaps 48 a 35 bours booe weet clearly cannot tacklo any problems of roncurch, however umall. Loal oducation authorities should be encouraged to rouliso tut pood mm coming from the university will still have an interest in research. Not only will be have that interest himself but he can foster ft in his pupils. They may then go on to read taschlog as a vocation whilch can, in addition, provide them with research opportunities, oven if only in a very small way Part of the discontent which has been related to as being communicated from teacher to pupils thus putting them of the teachmy profession, arkea from the fret that mea with good honoun degree, who had the ability and inclination to go on to do research, haro been forced to teaching It us say at tho time of the depression and have fomd that their whole natural trend of mental development has been completely stultifled With Eittle co-operation some opportanty could have been provided to cuble them, in conjunction with the uptrundtlan, to develop themelves by work on sullet problems in the Der I have masested. Professor H. H B SEKIR (Lhrerpool) We have beurd muci discussion this afternoon about bow wo might persuade LICIDCC mduates who other we would go toto bodustry to go into school teaching Instead. I wooder whether tho migottude of this problem u realised. At the moment me at proridos about 500 piece tractiets par tour of on the wole, vory inadequate quality Over the per five years mo ought to provide according to the figuras published, 1.000 pet yet I think we agree that thero b really do bope of on dolog this out of the 3.000 odd coco gradonas vilch the Unitelles de producing The only really efective short ·term measure the ono stressed by a previous speakertho remision of national arvico in some form or mother Thes, coupled perhaps with tocreased pay u about the only thong we do do Howover cycn this will certainly not be couch, uod of course tho reason that the problem of the schoolteachers is merely a symptom of the general shortage of Kientists which our educational system has turned out and is turning out at the moment There is no real solution to the matter other than providoy, kto ay 2 per cent of the population with contific training. Instead of about 1 per cent as at prezent. This Açure has to be compared with the figure of 3 per cent to the Unted States of America and, according to what I reed a DC paper recently an even bigher Oguro La Rosla. Unul we tocrease our numbers we shall not hare votred the problem d' or scientific manpower generally and certainly not the problem of teachers of science. Tobs means that to the short term we must make every afort to economiso in the use of tho tacher that we have and roveral auggesticos have been made some of which i think at pood For instance there is no need to start techbox children cience at 11 Professor Parks also wrserted tho frouping of schools into bigger ututs for scienco teachborg- I thank this sboald be tried. I think the umiversities them selves abould expand theft totermediate courses us far as poolblo to na to pick up us many as possible of the peoplo who have been badly tagbt or even perhaps not taught at all up to the CE higher level standard. At Liverpool this Is the policy of tho xlence faculty and we havo made a start already With ruch moostro ve my pertaps pull through, bat the main objective arould bo to malupy the number of technologically educated people whilch we product in tho country The eye must be on the ball the wholo time. Car talnly it would be a good thing I us was suggested, a commission of all the laterested parties could be got together to look at the problem as woke. Professor R. E PEIERUS, in replytog to the discumon, ald I would liko to reply brefly to one or to points Find, on the question of starting scientide education at 11 or at 14 I think it may we'll be that the future xentist an part at 14 and, in a concentrated xentlfic training pot tho Docenry background in time. That is certainly pomble. However we must not forget the person wbo Dot roing to bo scientist and be dow has only for too little acquaint unco with science. For those people it would bo too late, ·45 because they havo other thing to lam at the age of 14 and Inter The brings mo to the point made by Di Birlo This has no direct connection with our object, bat I do not think I would liko to let his statement about the arrow odiation of patiat pus unchallagad. This is true to some citent, bat I think there is a fur prenter danger pooplo oo tho otbor sdo completely backing m any knowledge of the pola ciples of clenco und starting edadco teaching at 14 would muko this rery much worte. The CHARMAN I know that you will all wish to apres very warm thanks indeed to our opening peace and also to tho invited guests who bavo nobly como forward and contributed to this dicunon ·SECOND SESSIO SATLIDAY Van Diawn I$TH ARE UNDERGRADLATE COLRSES OF STUDY OVERLOADED Charman RELALU BA Ph.D. LOL Prolossor of Fret. Lonetsity College of the South Best of England. Ercier 201 President Associon Lonesty Tastors The following notes note cumulated prior to the corde CTC - A Scorchery of Address by Sir J F M FT DAY Pertaps se corbat to disimpuk (1) The frontibod y blabos. (6) The amount of sort start this sylabus msohes (6) Abat the stockedt us actually required to do. 1 ss seldom n the art facolors, cut Bat this is ate because o docs not meal atuat o im otrod mit tact ground readmi (o). osoal menos much more than is actuals fitxeribed so that the student feels msecure and sonets deceived (m) s preater than etber (1) or (til The real question is whether or not (m)s cont. In arts Lulus I do cot beliae dura is Forturately these deportiseats are ogally dong with a fiante con of He do cor cocesuriy us the sampocs apparently do add coasters.e qorutant baik year by jaar Bit there are two doors. (a) Should set to mie up bt. dance comises, font se beligge to be inadequacy the specifist tammg ta in forms Clady wa sirth fcrms the better thm others and were the opporze risks of the 22 str.deats hat has been shomly by sose od part our courses to shit can be assumed of all My frderetet soall be for assommt a good dal cd Les to brez srah fos up to this stredod. (b) Do me or dood te gee al education of our studsats and aronda out by our sponti retirecents I do act believe in sustbr ou atz.6015 zod Irrelezat slabs of coltare ·I do not think that thu o for the entrarnty to prescribe, though it an and should provido the opportundtrei Brodly I doubt if the arts student to in bocour school is ovar-prested by what is tardemlaally requoed of him. B. Notes for Addrew by Professor H. SW MASSEY 1 Requirements of onlyerzity undergraduate course to 100.00 Aubjects (a) Ralluation of the full cultural luo of the object (b) Neod for proper balance between truloos in principia md technique (c) Proper emphasis on both thoorttral and practial ades of tho cubject. (d) Need to glimpse at como ago the present boundaries of the pubject (.) Need to deal with students whose interests and paturil abilitlos, though appropriate for tho Rubject, uro Dover tbclass rather varied 2. The special problems of clenco gudents (a) Practical work. (b) The third yeur-difficulty of choosing syllabus in a rapidly advancing mubject. 3 Can satdactory xclenco couro bo provided to three year without ovedoading the student? 4 Euksting science courses 5 Relation of the problem for renco students to thoto of students in other trcultia The CLAIRLIAN I should like to peace my remarks this morning by paying how deeply honoured I un, u Prordent of the Autoclauon of University Teachers, to bo invited to tako the chair at the present on the Home Univeruities Conference. Ito antifytog to note that the Committee of Vice-Chancellor und Principals realia, pedup through pardal of our Universities Review how deeply the Apoca tion of University Tachers is laterested in all matter Lifecting onverty life, and that is not exclusively concerned with matter of flery word gnados end negothing machinery to ne pracelets bat commonly becepted terms. Recent Dom paper articles and current rumours bave Dot blinded them to the truth. This morning we are pathered to discuss a topac which will anke ponte as a hardy perennial Caully the question of the overloadlog o undergraduato couma hos beca naked ·48 before in many quarters and lo dulcrent contents, but perhaps pever beforo with the am urgency or so at last ft seems to me, busy as I un now in dn wing op idal syllabuse for the day when the college to which I am attached may receive 1 Royal Charter The problem posed may not be capable of ready solattoo IL, however it rere once agited that courses are overloaded, tho remedy which may rury accordlog to the subjects or the facultos concerned, should be within our compon, even if it were found that the problem is more totractablo in tho Alcoces than in the urte Thero to this much to be ul. Our question this morning direct on should tho kolwer be equally direct, someblog practical can add must be dood to get thlogs right It is self-evident that tho curricula prepared for under graduates must be related to school curricula and what can kpitimately bo apected of fresher as well as to rademic requlsements in all faculties. This being so no ero fortonate in having with us Mr Wollenden, the Vice-Chancellor of the Univerdty of Reading and present Chainman of the Secondary Scbool Dominations Council and former beadonaster of Uppingham nod Shrowbury who will open our proceedings Ho will be followed by Professor Massey who is Quain Professor of Phynder at University College Loodoo. Wo all knorr that in 1930. praat revolution took place in the world of phylon, and that shoce then the amount of knowledge that students are aspected to asumilato in this Aubject has increased rapidly and probably more so than to any of the other cleaces, Professor Massey who bas interested himself to both theoretical and experimental pbyoles, has clearly an Important contribution to make to tho subject to be discussed Witbout moro do I now all on Mr Woliendeo to address tho conference JF WALFEMDEN CBE MA, Vice-Chancellor Univer dity of Rading I tako it that my prime function this morning us to open a dircon, uod I thotetoro propose to bo very bret in wtut I bave to say The consequence of that may well be that I shall bo more, or shall roem to bo mora, dogmatic and complacent than I really um, ar at any nato than I should sh to be thought to be. This to difficult subject, eod I think that If decent brevity a to be observed 1 certain imount o dogmatism going to be marokdablo. Moreover it mort cactly twenty you go that I ceased to be full-time university teacher and it may tharcore be that once then some of my notions bayo not dracod very much. Since then I have only had the two recessive phases of belog connected with schools on the 000 ·haod uod becoming a full-timo administrator on the other Than that last thert aus, of counc, to auch a company us thly bo co moro frightful fate. I do not therature propose to ay very much to topitflaation of the Dots which aro proted in the programm, but boak prefer ff I msy to take a little further the dancer at which I hat ut tbe and of them. La mo look at the fimt Oto meathored there tho quetion of whether we should try to malo up in our de course wat smo poople fool to bo tho inadequacy of the specialist training in como sixth forms I hayo yaptured tho matoncot that sono dith forms are better than others, from which I appose It follow that KONDO are won the other Wo uro in danger elthet a urruming in all our students what has been achucted only by como ar of pouring our couma to what can bo asumed I venture the hope that wo dhall in fact continue to your what we requero to the high level of good path forms, and that we shall not in fact try to the first year ofta undreruty ho to provide for an undergraduate Radeot what ought to have been provided at school. I do not think that it be our busloco to try to be puth forms, however some of us may think that we could do it better than tho ith farms do bowever wo may be Insptred by some good with forms to an idea of what one year or two year of oth-form odoc tion an be. It is the budou of the schools to bo tools, und of puth forms to be dith forms, and of our courtes to be unlvendty counts and pot school courses The extent to which specialisation in sixth forms in the particular subject or Beld of study wbich Andaat o song to purse at 1 university desirablo thing, and bow much importance to should attach to apparently proved specialist performance in one Hoo or other are question about wuch there soms to be a good deal of difference of opinton, at tay rato amongut my own colleagues aod among those wtion I bare consulted in other universia Tbo boob, I think, naturally support that if they can bring their sixth form students up to a high level ot of excettve specialisation --Dobody cver indulges to create specialisation except tho people that we dhuito-but o roscable spectallation in i dal of Hudy that stut we Hte I bare myself more than oncs, ut conferences between unteratia and schoak, urged that there should be for moro rabonal attention thao bitherto pell to petting stool syla buses and valversity syllaboros more ad-on * to each other Lodead, an abstract noun,"codonitos" has been used befaro DOR I And, horcyer that there an others who take precisely the opposito vicw I have found some university proletons ·who ay qutto cheerfully and apparently with full meaning that thoy do not are what speciellation has gone on to the students pest od they do not care what id nunced level cubjects have been conquered, provided they are not tho ono wuch is poms to be taught to the student us his or her honours degree course. It know becoming o some places almost a doquariatoo for i student that be or she should have reached sdrubced or actiobarship level m the parkular fold which be or she proposes to cater for in honours degree. I do not know what is the right answer to that, but I think It lo about time that como serious attempt was made to decide whicte school studies and and where university studies bepa, aod ako to decide whether what I baro barbarously formed "endonitas" La desnable thing OT DOL It may bo that this problem which is more acute in tho chances than it om te onts or letters facultat, but I um sure that it axists in the letters faculties u well. There is the inevitable tendency tod tempuation, which I know from the school cod, o an ablo and interested sixth form master or mistress to get on to the attracne and mtaresting parts of a pubject, wbother it is ancient history or one of tho sciences or French Literature and so often the consequenco of their dotog so is that the univerutles complain that there perucular students have indeed a superficul acquaintanco with cooo things with which it would be very much better that they should never bare become acquainted at all, bat that they have no firm foundation on which we in the univer Atles ain build. There is a certain amount of odum, if not theologicum at any rato linguliticum botween tho schools and anlverulties at that point. The next polat which I wish to suggest deserving of attention is the said of specialisation, which I am afraid wo have to face, well worn though I am sure many of us think that it has been I am prepared to be dogmatic enough to ay that the most important thing of all for university students, us I understand universities, is that they should learn to go doop somewbere Procisely where will be deter mined, of course, by their own interests and abilities, by partups, tho particular interests of the professors under wbose marence they come, iod by tho principles which the par thular study which they take op bs Intended to laminate but It doa scot to me that it is time that ro rassertedand I am furt that it is necessary to raisot lt i tre believo It-that to go deep poolowbere and to know something pretty definito and detailed about something I what we should really bo up to I should have thought that from there tho specialisation that cyerybody deplores to proch would in fact auro belf by motios outmands la widening crea, if this ·51 central coro de Interest is one which is property taught und properly studied I boucro that this is redout to the question of the or cording of our syllabus, because I hear moro por the I used to but that may be recident only about the topaboo which kom, of my colagues find difficult to root to (as the phrux is) cover the ground. I conspect that when wo get into the way of thinking and taking in thems of covering the ground, wady po tre m danger specially if thord is anything In what I have been trying to trpe about going deep. OY cour coon becomes overcromad H the ground has to be covered, if by that is meant, u I think it often I, that tho Audent u being allowed to regard wut 1 an only call, very barbarously total coverago" al, for instanco, English literature or English history u donnable thing to try to achievo la three yan I have beard to my conversations on this topic of those who do in fact attempt that cod who think that it is tho right thing to attempt. I confce that I do not Tho thud palnt on wuch I want to speed minuto or two to this, that that danger-the danger that toovitably urlex 1 one gets into the way of thinking in terms of total corengo - obvionly a greater danger will the student ha required to pursue - I think It will be puckoo and pery lituo mort-two or even three cubjects at equal strength, or at hardly varying strength of the Weal behind them k covering the ground. I cannot really caempt my untrenuity colleagues from the charge which wed to bo brought against specialat axth-form teactieru un actools, that if there are three - let us leato it at three professori, ach of whom has claims on a gident, the chances are that beloro rery long each of those three will assort claims in publime Indiference to the chains of the other two If that bo so, then the student is in for every fierto time dor, I think, a very thin tumo but a very thick timso That mug especially be the ax if the student of whom We are thinkios bus from the maturo at the as he or sho most often be, one who u or who is deemed to be a los than the roquired intellectual calibre to take in honours course in any one fubject. I am very much into that tbo student wo is taking i general degree, bether a pena! hodoun dorreo a penenal pas degree, probably has been bect reight of salt to be got through mord to do than tho ordinary porxo reading 1 Amal hoooun mbool It may well bo that the person dome the poss depice buking to pass degree because he or she is deemed to be intellectually incapable of the other I um pretty sure from the short apert coce wilch I bave had to co oalrersity Lutely that I ·52 Iery much easier to get third in most hopOUTS schools than to get a general degree Floaly i strught honours degree course properly dovoted 00{ to amusuot superficial loformation but young deep somewhere, wil, I think give coocentration and disciplloe and the illustration of prmciples us hell us giving at the age tme. renuino and firm basis from which to move outwards and onwards to include more and more starting from the specialust starting point. It seems to mo that it to our job to promote this outward motion and to expect it of our good Audents, but not to try to enforco It by what I have presumed to describe in my notes us sticking on extraneous and tele- Yant Habs of other studies, and especially it appear culturul ones because of wo do that we are in very grave danger of something which I have seen tappening in schools that abject is now deemed to be "cultuni" whatever that means in direct ratio to its urekerzace to anything else There are a good many schools now wbero-believe it or not—the reason why Latin b regarded as the cultural abject par ercellence is that It B not the fulgtost uso to anybody I hope that we shall never get ourselves involved in what reco to me to be tho preposterou equation that tho Loteke vant equals the cultural, amongst the many meanlag of that word "cultural" b to be included that which we hope will be at any rato one of the fruits of a ualversity oducation. The CHATKAN We aro Indeed Indebted to Mr Wallanden for his very nhuable contribution. I now have great pleasure in lanting Professor Mastey to address the conference, Professor HSW MASSEY M.S., Ph.D., FRS, Quran Professor of Physics, Univerity College, Unlversity of Londoo I am going to start oft quito uninhamedly us a scienco specialut, and I shall talk about the problem is seen by one who has to teach and arrange for teaching students in science subjects, and particularly physics, although I have bed ciperten.co abo la mathematics. I am golog to talk malnly to the notes which I have contributed, with tbe ka of enkrglog them fomcwhat in vanous directions, and later I shall consider the problem to a nather wider ens. Of course, i ogo confines oneself to scieoce subjects 000 is ruil far from specialising and I want to emphadse the gaat wussety which is countered within tbe kerico faculties tbemosela in going for example from mathematics which for one reason of 10other is regarded wa Kance-through phylos and chemistry to the brologal skoces. The problems are very diferent, nod they exhibit al sorts of dlmcultas which have to be fred ·Fru of all, you will notice that I have listed to my notes wbat Ioard is foportant roquirement auntyalty under graduate courra tn cac mbjects. We ooght to be clan about thu betano e coadder this whole loto. I have listed us the first of these requirements the rallation of the full cultural value of tho pobject In wing the adjective "cal tural" hero at my nate I annot be retired of rogurdhog cultural u octated with Imolovint ud melaks. Tho opposite situation wouly applies to atenco its reparded us thatul, u purely a technique, something which should be confined largely to techological education und u harmg Do rool educational value in the full scals. This I way protest very strongly against, because I fool that an prechatron of what scienco con to us of the very greatott general educational importance. No xa courbo Ricceeds my oploon, anless it doar convoy to the gudent much of the very mportant side. My rocood point is too need for proper bulanco beth on truinlog in prosciples and technique Thia spain to clovely related to the fiori pobot, becauuso mo bave to think of both ddar of science Toeto is the cultural alde-I wall liso the word cultural " alway in its proper senso--and ako tho more useful" side. To Ronc oxtent, though not fully prin aples and techniques are assortated with these spects, but in both wo have to have something of the two. Thero ba very diferent approuch persary in dealing with technique and in deahog with pracipla, and it 11 very important that the priochples should bo to the fore. This apain market from subject to cubiect, and in physhes the problem for fact somewhat caster becauto to selection of the principles, the reallation of the principles, is rather mort obvious than in some of the other science. When to come to the question of Lochnique, there is tho Important compliation, in considering overloading that aften Decorary to imbito very extensive knowledge of technique in order to appreciate principles This is particularly to lo pubjects which will they to the main yolalio o the godont, do require i considerablo acquaintance with other objects. There the problem of aubeldary or achary subjects with which the student needs to dal, and this an orta load to a very marked focreato in the load placed upon hm. This particulady ko, for comple in chemiary A Hudent to checo try has to know quite a lot of mathematian quite a lot of paysia, and often something of brology a weh. If he mimaros to tailato what bo is popposed to udpilato, he will be the least specialued of 11 under paduata The next pomt la proper aphasis on both the ·54 and the patial sides of the subject la science sublects, - distinct from arts, we have to connder the practical vido I do not mao practical applicatioos, but the fact that scienco proceeds by two-pray procedure involving developments in both theoretical and practial directions or perhaps Otto should ay experimental rather than practal directloos. It necemary to consider what emphasis should be put on training in these two sides. lastand at thing the port polnt now I should like to tako that which I have loted us (e) and on thbs connection to point to tho problem which broued In (e) I have told that there is a need to deal with Hudeats wiose Interests and daturu abilities, though appropriate for the publect, we nevertheless rather ned. By that I mean that in order to provido for the different ways in whilch scientific mort pro ceeds we have to have people whose actual abuities ar to variety of directions tous ls pertaps best illustrated by a nther exagerated description of the thrco Einds of physicist It necondary to havo otpenmonial, thooratral and mathepatal yricists, and they can be distinguished in rather Loose terms us follows. The caperimental physcist can masure the walue of : phyucal quanthy Ho bu no idem why ho gets the result be obtains, though it is a correct ono, and be us quite ipapablo o alcalaung the value. Tho mathematical physicist is able to akulate the value of the phyxial quanůty but agen he has no idea why ho gets the retult he does ud he has no kden at all how to measure it. The theoretical physicist is quito incapable of obupnine the value of any physical quantity but on the other hand ho does know why the experimental and mathematian physicists got the results which they do. There is in fact a good deal of truth in these distinctions, and you have to pelect your students accordmgly realising that thoro ere prosent amongst the good ones those with abilues in these three directions. You have to make sure that you do not damp out 000 or other d them, because they are all Important. Wo now come to the very important point of the aced for the godent to alımpoo at some stage to bbs undorinduato areer the present boundaries of the fubject. Ho should do thls o order to fed a ral vende di proportion in the subject, to realko how far it an po and has gone. This k, of course, 000 of the major dirculties, because in most of the scien.co mbjects in all of them, in fact, there is so much additional progress into the votnom eyery ya now that to keep glloping the horizoo posar a very great problem lodood to the choice of Pubject matter for the modernadmata Thos need sharpeted by the purely economic problem ·that, us the funds go at the moment for postgraduato work, student is expected to begin research atter há thrco-yatr undergnduato career tot sod it is very difficult to co how he cm aurt to do that at all lectively unlaus he has kome rollation of the boundaries of the subject. It is tha partialar problem which is one of the most crious, boutus of the rapid nato o accumulation of new ed important knowledge in the clenco sobjecti. This means that when we come to connder the third year da undermduato barom course in . denco subject thero A great dificulty in choouing the pobject matter The Vice Chancellor d the Univerzity a Reading bas mentioned in bu notes that there are two problems that of choosing the Labru ind that at whether or not 000 works to it In the cenco subjects tho chooong a tho ryllabus maly does not udo, and the problem b what is natually taught without rolating it to the ryllabus us such. To bom the differenco between this attitude and tho atthode to some other facultas, mtil very recently the syllabuh physics o the University of London consisted of no tinc, “The prociples and toch. miquo of physics. no guidance there, and indeed It would be very difficult to provide any gidance, but the choke ho to be made with I those requirement which I mentioned at the beginning in mund. Tha k partlcularly difficult with a rapidly advancing subject. On top of this thore Is the very important problem in all tho etpercental science of the time take up by practical work This very important watter because in mod coco subjacts the time outside lectures which the student has in the day almost always occupied in practal work This mordething which quito important and I do not posuble to touch cience abjects without having an adequato opportunity for practal aperience to those three year. It may be that there is a little too much, but the ground to be covered a wide. Thos a verious rotter in cookleting overloading It is true that 10 some of the subjects in i dence fxculty such as mathemata, the question of patical work does not artso, but, as I shall menbon lata in mathematics that are other problems, bene specialmton in mathematos far more advanced than in most other subjects, at lag so far 15 the tachers are concerned, and the students usually find that they are given too much to do for other reasons. Having this in mind, o should at ourselva tho question cutsfactory clenco come be provided to thro years without overlonding the gadent? The answer is probably dot. The requirements which I have listed ard to ever it eo y sudents catered the caholy at the Amo level and with a totectory standard of basic knowledge ·JO It would be dificult in three years to bring them up to the necessary level and hope that they would have mined awicient permanent value fraro the course The atuation is greatly gruntod however by the extremely uneven standard of the audent at trance. The problem is going to be acute, for tho science faculty at least, lor a long Ume to come, because at the problem of Atence teaching It u very serious to have boy coming in and becoming students from aith forms bero lo subjects such us phyna they are supposed to have learnt very mportant basic princi ples. In physics purucularly the wbject mechanics booo of the most important, and mless it is properly understood It will aliran be a handlap at all later stages in the Audents career and yet in universitas a large part of this. in physics ut any nato, taken for granted this means that some Hudents are unduly handicapped by this problem of the very oven entrepco standards Wo shonld also ask ourselves the question Arc custing enco courses in unverstias such us to overload gudents ? I do not think there is any doubt that there are many which do overload the students. There great varution, I am curre from department to department within the amo pobject, und from rubject to subject. I think that on the whole the station b not quite so bad in physics, because it is not quite so dificult.' Thero u npad stanco lo phyma, but it happens to be the most adnanced at the recoces, and that means that there a highly developed theoretical site of the gubject which has a strong synthetic nuloo m making it possiblo to pull together great vinety of information without the neces ilty of remembering all the isolated fact. It ta pomblo to sco the relations between them, and they are property pot forward the student b able to intimitate piant daal of material without having to remember all the details. The thuation is Ice atisfactory in other polences because other stage of development. It la particularly difficult la the biologlaal sciences, where a pat dald material is forced Into the student without his being able to see the relations between tho Individual facts. I am sure ko that there is a great deal of Overloading in mathematic Matbemata tu COMO under the science ficultla, to a large atent beare mathematics bas developed so far that there to very great specialisation amoopa mathematicians, and at an advancod Lovel a mathematician in 000 specialiam finds that it l very dificult to understand one in unother Tbo rent is that in a university sa here it is necessary to have reprezentatives of a theo specialistas, esch ooo I Rarious that the gudent should be giren filcfent training to hl particular pedal ·57 ham, uod accordingly the syllabores uro bavily overloaded in many cua I may appear to be a little dogmatk, but I hopo that all those who feel that their mathematics courtes und cleaca court u oot oreclouded will tako part in the dia cardon und my Tho nat questions Con mo Improvo this studioa? So far as clenco be concerned I think that gomothing an be dono by emphedding to tho maximum the principles of the Albject, trying to bring them out clearly so far as poublethub much ensiar in physics, us I have ald, than fn other mbjects to that the students do not have to assimilato great number afects which aro comparatively umrelated. I think that the three-year period for the undergraduato course will have to say for some time for purely economic Teamon. It not pomblo to change the wbolo ryttem a grants for postendunto work and for undemduate mort to that thero La lopter period than three you for the undergraduato courto I think that something can be done by relaxing the les that atter three yean the undergradato become a graduate and therefore normally coere to leam, accopt during his resourch work. I find that research Audenta tako this autodo to a very condenablo extent, that having dono their three rear course they an now kart to do research and Deed not bother bout anything except the particular thing on which they are working I feel that we have to change this Atution qulto drastically We cannot do this by puppadog that they are paing to tako more than three yaan before thoy start doing research without having to change the system of great-giving throughout the country but thero B no reason at all why sodants who aro dertaking • Ph.D course should not have to loam and understand more, apart from the particular spocalist problem an which they are engaged This is a direction in wuch I fool that we could malo rubatantial progron. It true that the requirements for the Pu.D provide that the audent shall know the best proud of his subpost, but this baterpreted very variously and is truly taken to mean only quito a mrton background. I feel that there should be moro scopo for omuring that after three youn, although tho gudent does undertake reach wock, he should at the amo timo lam 10d understand more about his So far as the cool problem k cocomed to clence thert ts sotag to be difficulty for Joos ume to come. I do preo an thus mutter with Mr Wolfoden, lo that I prefer when Hudents undertato science courses at the univerity particubudy in subject much as physics where the basic principles ure to very important, that there should be un attempt to eart from the bestandog, but not going Oper the goud in ·58 the same way and attemping not a 21 a sixth form approach but a university teaching spproach. If you start from the beginning you can establish the precipies more woundly and If you do that half the battle is won because to understanding of the principles is the most important thing at all In my concluding remarts I should like to say something about other faculties, beans the problem s obviously not confined to arts and science. Although my knowledge of other faculties is slight, I nevertheless lave some Ich s about them. My feeling that in the professional faculties exclude Law about which I know absolutely nothing there be possibly more overloading than in either its or science. This has probably due to too much emphasis on technique and too little on peneral principles. I feel that this is a general difficulty that in order to meet professional requirements there ba tendency to force m lacus and technique without any attempt to systematiso and put forward clarly to tho Audents the principles involved I also think that in the technological facultes Insuficient attention is paid to developing those differing character Lic), all of whwch are desirablo lo the full practice of the profession. In engineering, fust u la physics, We require different kinds of abilty in order to have an adequate and thorough engbreerlog professuton in the country but insufficient attention is paid to developtog these sides with the result the student whose bent is rather moto towards ono Aldo a the ober dos tend to find himsell overloaded, becawo dtho uncoagonal chancter ol so much of the work that be has to do Dapite all this one of the things which I am very surprkod about b that students in the prolassoal fuculas often make greater contributions to university activities than students in urts and science. I would further my that while it is true that students are very renow in their knowledge of cultural activities, it is tually true that on the average the scence or technological student has more knowledge of the arts than the arts student has of scienco. I end by asking the question is Hi pomiblo that the arts student la nather mord overloaded than the others? > The CHAIRMAN I am sure you will agree with me when I ay how Iluminating Professor Mastey s runty of the position with regard to the sciences has proved to be, and how much we welcome his patal agresions. Before #o be on the general discusson I should be to welcome once again our guests and in particular our colaguas from the Common wealth and Amma, und to inform then that thar contribu trods to the discussion will be gladly received If spate an ·59 limit themselves to five minutes it will bo a great belp to the Chair D D H. PEACOCX (Sheffield) I should fe to Ay word or two about the question d culture. Culture, coure, related to cultivation, und me want to ask ourselves what it that we are cultivating at a mirardy And cultivating tho gudent or are we cultivatby the subject? The answer of course that we are enda vouimg with greater or less meno a moon, to cultivate both. I met bowerer that from many points de ver probably the slightly more important taskund i cmphoose the word Lightly the cultivation of tho student, because although the majority at any rato of science gudents, whien thoy lavo the univoruty condove to prorocute the subject which they have been audy Ing. even amongst the renco audents thero a minority and not by any maum w insignifiant minority, who change over from that subject to something quito different from thetr point of view at the education ar cukintion which thor oban at the antverdty probably the moro important part 3 the conation at their own mode. That lada mo to wpport the clalin which has been made by both the principal speakers, that the moro important part of our task at the university kto cukivate the principles of the abfect. In parenthesis I should hke to point out, m com nection with this metaphor a cultivation, that imoor horticulturats there a condenable argument about whether deep cullvation is advisable a Dol I do not think that we an prosecute the imlogy too closely on those lines, but I am sure that it be poseble to cultivate the principles of a Rubject to roch way us to give the averago Audent in three yeun in adequate grounding in those prodples, and an adequate browledge of the application at iboto prociples for hls further woch. I should like very strongly to support Professor MAECJI remarks about the nature of postgraduato rearch wort It b pertaps depłonble--I might even ay lamentable that when the universities of this country took over the PhD from the cootmental universitas they did not more completely Imitato tho cound a study I suppose that em England thought that our undergraduato coors were so very poperior to the uadernduato courses of continental onlycruities that there is no necessity for the student who mas going on to take 1 Ph.D to talo any further coure in His work Those of you who arc fumar with the old courses for the Ph Dm the German umiversitles, both on the uts ode mnd on the cance dde, will remember that it wus quite common for a Audent who was writing his thesis to po to his protestor and ·00 discuss the thesk and be 101. * Well, Mr So-und-do I think it would be in acellent thog for you, before you write your theats to attood Prolosor So-und 60 s course on X Y or 2" In the miveniva o this country very little at that is done. and very little s door in the way of portentuato course. I think that by the introduction of postgraduato courses uc could do i good deal to fill up the inevitable gars. I my Incritable because nobody in three you can cover the wholo object matter of any science subject D G N BURKAIT (Manchester) I speak us a chembet and as sensor tutor to faculty of Science There a general agreement that the sciences art progresung so rapidly that they present some problem for the audents, and it is worth whilo cramming from time to time the final papers over the various deades to see what has, in fact, bappened. This may be helpful in conndering what sort of treatment is necessary and I people would do it more widely we might set sorde more specific attack on these problems In the case of chemistry if you shor e modern group of undergraduates a pre 1914 set of final bonoun papers, they laugh, not becauso the aubloc-matter is out of dato, but because they covered such a largo fraction of it at school I would ay that to much papers in the early twenties the content md the dificulty a the conceptions Inrolved both of which are important were certainly not much greater than those required for... moter ordinary degree. The chango trom the early thirties orwards has not been to grant but there has been in chemistry tho increuso d nunge which Professor Marcy mentooed, so that the rubject now runs into blocbantary on the ano hand, and mathemathaal physia on the other and I would say that there has been an Increuse also in dubculty I agree with Prolassor Massey that the comprehensiveness of the conceptions is greater but I feel that he underestimate the problem which this presents. The Implication of his remarks, that thermodynamics, quantum mechanics and relativtty are matters which can be quickly grusped and mpkdly applied, seems to me to be false. The modern approach is much moro stimulating, and ultimately moch soundar us an educational process, but to not can This charpe bas not taken place in the Universities Rhone A considerable amom has been done in the school partly through improved teaching, partly through increased special sation with good deal d increase of pressint. The question how does wut wo uro requiring of a sudent of 21 comparo with what wus in the page required of a pudeat a 21 aod ut wo justified In reception the present situation? On trentment of the problem and I un rure that it is a ·problem in cines, and a greater coc in medctor and technoop wree with Professor Mussoy that we cannot ut present contemplato a coats a fou yon, mae we are dave to beat the school cannot lay a foundation in consequence of the body a teachers which we discussed yesterday I am sure that hok ment in aying that the aim should be to continue the education of selected people, a higher proportion of selected people than a prezent, lo the foorth and pubeequent years, ata the bachelor's degree. I notice, Inodentally that Professor Masky Ike a good many other people, seemed to be thokong almost entirely of the man who was gong on to do research. Im Hecept the da that we must be careful about our requirements at the bachelor Level, and popplement them in tablo ways for colected pooplo water there are a number of pooblities There is tho posubility of portendoate research, mod also the possibly of courses n applied doce, chemalagmeer me au o portgraduate study and a variety of other thmgi I am sure that that bs 900 lbe which should be watched magt arefully We ought. ako to comider moro folly the development of ordinary degree counas Tho nomenclature for degree u very confuang The term bonours" has two quite diferent meaning. In some cuxa i bawat cars to bordumdant add too to first class and top second chats, whatever the coure may be. In the torm hooount school it refers to a for the education at scholar In the science, that man for tho education d research workert on the lines woch Protopor Moxy has described. Tbo nomenclature could be ratiopalkeda lule if the ordioary degree course were regarded as designed for the edoction of the commooct and my feeImg b that we ought to aiand much more Trously to the education of the coormoner By commoner" I do not mann a person wo has pot a scholarship, but I wish to distinguish between the real scholarly qualitas nod the commorat qilibias of good ability substantial Intellectual interests and the qualities which are much wider o well I um plad that Professor Mascy emphasked that honoun degree in general science at the most kevad propodtlon tn a university That certainly true. I belieto that they can be made mort satisfactory it to boreptod that the breadth thall be at moden lere, and that they shall bare the depth. to which Mr Wolfendon reared, in score part of the field, preferably on the borderline between two main sublects. I am responsible for those people to my w miversity and I ·am staggered by the freshness of mind which the good ones Team On the other side there is one point which reden back to I provion discussion. I am sure that in many universities at the present me students are maling the overloading of courses for work for themselves than they need because they will not thimk in terms of a full day a full week and a full year for the great vunay of their student activities. The problem of encouraging them to uso nations austactorily u one of the first importance. On the question of the increased range of propaple, the great thing that is needed to ume to digest the principles and understand how to apply them, ko that high pressure attention during the terms by no means adequate There is coe adminkerathe matter here to which we uro giving some attention where there b an cumnation at the end of each year this tends to omkostodents, quito unreason ably ay "Now I have dealt with that What do I do next? They ought, course, to be able to find the user but they need help on the posliive side to decide on what subject matter and by what methods they can profitably use vacations. Prolensor N FEATHER (Edinburgh) I should Hke to tako remark from each of the opening speaker and set then in opposition. Mr Wolfendon rand and I agree with him—that ut some suuso in tho counte the undergraduate should to deeply into his subject, and Professor Massey said that at Boro come he should pumps the boundaries of I. In my these two remarks, both of which I rogurd u sell cvidently true ure not necessarly antonymou. I think that it b very pooblo to po deeply in some place in the first year Tachung in a Scottish university I urady have the atinuoo hich Professor Mosey sard was not bkely to be attained if I wus cven desirable, in England in the immedate future. namely the stuntion of having undergraduates for four years for a science course the int yaar is more nearly at the xxth-form bevel than it is in tho Englab untveralties, but I find that even in the fine year at a Scotish umiversity it is possible in a subject ruch us physics to go deeply occasionally I think that it is very important indeed, when the young person comes from school to the university to surtke him at ibe outset by taking him deeply now and gain, because the question of depth here is not necessarily a matter of being recondae but of putting before a mind which b capablo o appreciatboy It novel fundamental hez, wluch is purely the main object of bringing a man a woman to university to give him or ha i brond education I would say therdore.

·that this matter at depth Teed not bo rogerved for the final honoun your Maintaining that position, however and with #an implication which preteps moro dilikult to socopt and follow It has arrely that if one deal m tlns may with a conco course in the first var are requires of the student, u mo Dormally requtras dendents in an arts cubiect, reading over uod above what he get in lecturas und practial root. There hu beat tendency to think that it ba matunl to roquíro ech reading at the arts dudent, but improper to requiro it of tho anco Kudent, beau he has not the time for t, but I feel that it must be required of him if this approach, wuch I regard as the correct approach, ba to be followed in detul. and there a course, we do como corely to grip with the question before us a whether or not the course bovalondod. Dr L. ARNAUD REID (Asociation of University Teachers) When I came bere this morning I did not mean to sponk, but. havtog Patented with very meant Intezaat to what has been ald. I would mention something which has not, I think, been referred to so far Mr Wollenden spoke about dopth and brandth and the kind of education which an had in the xxth form, and I do very much agree that very otton ono s own education s pomething which develops outwards from a buc lateract. I am uphillosopher by training, and was a straight professor of philosophy before I came to London, when I became a prolattor a tho philosophy of education I have an a Friday morning to locture to ex or seven kundred Audents in this very room I am very much concerned with this matta We Bet in education the products at dah forms and the products of the Univeruly, It seems to me that one aspect of this depth which has been spoken of an be alled philosophy by which I do not necessarily mean having set courses m philocophy but having guided docussion of the implica uoos and sumptions of any subject and it baartog on other thingIt is very hard to do this l uod I thlok that in th forn it is very often not dove becanso path form teachers themselves, being products of English education Scolaod It is little diferent-bave no philosophy" at all Philosophy is taught to t minuto traction of the miversity Rudents who are specialists in other Bells. We see the lament abte elects of this when they begin to try to think about auculon. We have university produates who themseltos are well tripod, very otten, in their own fields, but who when they como bere ay “We have never in our lives before thought about the mature of our object and its rela dous to orber ·64 thing." We have scientists who have never thought about any questions of the philosophy of Rence historians who have never thought of the nature of hlætory and so on, and Hoflod this kind a thing a very great obstacle to our work. We try here to give them something which they do not get in other places, but we find it hard because any fundamental thinking outside their own field is to new to them. They get 1 certainly bere and there but some of our students complain very much of the lack in the previous education. I agree with what Mr Wollenden maid about little bits of added information about other things I do not want that, but what I should nko to sec, far more than it geen now to umirert that philosophers (professors and lecturen) should attend to those who are specialists in oba Pubjects, and vice veret. I sbould like the sentists and the arta poople und the philosophen to meet and to fod out the ways in which they can help onto another and the gudents on underlying problems, because I think that one very important way in which the depth zod breadth of education an be secured This is not a plea for more spedalsts in highly tochalal philosophy but rather for showing how the philosophical babit d mind ba mportant, in the first place in the universities, and In the second place going down to the school, for those who are concerned about ther own mbject and want to see its rebation to other things, and wbo perba ps also want to uk themselves the questions which young people ought to ask thereselves about hfe und freedom, and faith and death, and man ind God-in fact, the great atemal istuen. In the unverdeles in these days, uniortunately these things aro crowded out. I do not think that very much an be done by having special courses but I am sure that a good dal Toro could be dono I those who are concerned about these things would get together and find out what the living intererts at the studenu are and bow they could be belped in their thinking about basic questions Profesor F H NEWARE (Queens Belfast) Thero a no doubt that the mdergraduate course of the present day are overloaded and the reason is not far to seek The station in it smplest me that by graduation day the student must havo amassed a certam amount of Informations, and this by tradition ba task which is distributed between the school and the univerzity As the boundarla of knowledge extend, obvt owly there has to be some reorientation of the teachlog. We will assume that the wolventies have that matter in hand let us Inquire how the schools have dealt with th Tho Ort thing which appeared to the schools to be right us to ensure that those audents whom they were sending up to the ·un veruitia bnd a moro adequate ground-vod in the degree roblocts which they were proposing to Body Immodutely thero wu an outcry of Darrow specialization though I har dover db.covered what the cptha "mrowadds to the word * specialisation At any rate the uniterties nude that charge, od the school, bot umatonly thooght that they were doing something wrong and had better malo umanda Sometimes they have medo emends in the way in which tho Vico-Chancellor Reading mentioned, by throwing in counter ha diroct contax to the main pubject glubog a little extra Latin to the clearls, and on Sometimes they have con chuded that tho best way in which they an iait by performing part a tho function which is tranlly amugned to the univerzity by giving I certan breadth to the man's intellect and this they have tackled by inclaching cound in contemponury affun iteratronal affair, approcution of benuty and whatnot. Thats comething which tho xchools and dogularly Tequipped to do In the first pace, it is only nrely that they havo anybody on the staff who la competent to do thi. A public-chool toucher told me once, that though ho b qulto prepared in the staff common room to read tho Dally Tderraph and tho Sunday Times he would not dare to read tho No State non becamo immediately he would be regarded us somebody capable of seeing both ada of a question and pot on to teaching contemporary affair The rerukt b that the fresher who come to the uruverity como wth mrrow specialist facts rattling round in hb had, and tho Intention filled with vegue aod woolly kdewa co culture which have been given him to the path form It by not fuprising, therdoro, that the majority of intversity letchers feel it anpafe to make any mumptoos about the quality of the Lahman which they have Obrously what is needed to somethung in the nature of what the Vice-Chancellor of Reading called "endonitus " - that b, como splicing a unirentity and school work. The only dificulty that I noe about that k that it ba na mwicient metely to bare splicing ano paper sylabus to the other because the univery teacher is daahing with audents who come from 1 varlety dacboobs, school with different tactila, und chools with teacher of dierent apacitla. You will be mra the multitudo od bands which * 1 groog do trump an core It is never alo to malo strumptions, and tbordare you will find that in the unradba, won the freshes como up tho member of the sunt feel that it is not alo simply to rely an ech datements us“ I took my throa azoced subjects od then spent two yen to the path form doing modem history It boot postible to build mythlay on that H ·the tacher feels himsell responsible for the whole bag of tncksground work, foundation and super-structure. The Inevitable resol la that the course is overcrowded. Professor R E. PETERLS (Bindnghan) I would claim that tho content of most university courses is not overloaded, at any nato in all the cases with which I am reasonably familiar ind I would not onclude the courses for medical sodents und cngmeens. Although it is very often said that they are terribly overburdened I do not believe that they contain more than an be taught to normally-equipped students in the tumo avullablo I have, however met many ases where students are Overloaded, and I think that there are three reasons for this when it happens. The first that, # has already been mentroued they may have the wrong approach to their subject. In that they approach it mth the aim of memorning all the detalled knowledge which s avallable rather than see ing no moderstanding of the principles That may be the fault of the student, or of the touching, or of the school from which the dudent came. This wrong attitudo very often agravated by the fact that thero tre kome sudents who come to the univerzity became it seems to them the natural thing to do. and bavo Dover got a realization of why they are doorg It OT becomo interested in their pobject. If you try to read a book without being Interested, so that unless you concentrato very hard you forget what bon page 15 by the time you get to page 16 It takes a very long itme to read the book The second ronson is that students are trymg to do a little more than they really can The student second chan honoun albro os trying by all means to get a fine or it may be that be a first-class man but thinbat bumself u second class and believes that to have the chance de research areer or whatever It is he wants, he has to work twice as bard to lam jut a Bttle more I wo could get it into tho beads of our students that they are at the unircority primarily to lam tho understanding and use of the rubtect, and that if they do that they will and their own lovel tho camina tion, it would help to keep down the presturo which they feel ut present. The third reason is one which has been already referred to it is that so many students do not make, have never learnt to make and cannot be perfuaded to make an efficient use of thou tome Thoy waste un awful lot of timo either on uanccos Ary thingt-things which we accenry neither for their miversity courro Dor for reasonable enjoyment of their time ut the universityOT more otton, and what is gill wone, they wago ther time completchy When I travel to other countno und watch the activities of students there often in very difficult ·conomic conditions, and often havde to cam living bender attending t unlrenity mod still being keenly interested other fubject md theta come-I think that this uplo to almou all other countries the position is pertap different in the umdorinduato coures in the United States, but not in the pocgnduate courses I feel whened for the majority of our students who claim that they have too much to do. A for real ipi godent came to me and wid that he would probably do vary badly in the comunaton, ahbough he had been used that he mu a bordadno ar Ho ard, I could not do more, because the actrita m connection with the university cumiril and my work for the university dramatic society took so much of my time that I had dono left in which to do my godles" I believe therdore, that we want to get away from the promure which many students do foel, it these facts which need attention Whilo we should not think of reducing the amount of ander standing, and certainly not the level of understanding which wo are trying to reach. I agree with Professor Massey and others that the postendonte teaching needs a great deal of attention. I should like to add that we should bero think nox merely of the PhD student, because for this purpose the muter's degree can be atremały icful for those who do not want to specialise in research. For entests who want a job in industry an extra year spent for tho musor degree, doing Perhaps a little simple revearch problem or attending post graduate counds only an aflea be a moch more valuable preparation. If the adopted, it may happen that after soon yan poople will prefer the most a degree to the bachelors degree in the way mo which they now peer the honours duato to tho mn with the ordinary degree, and our univerity course for roch purposes will thus be lengthened to four an Profesor F S DAINTON (Leeds) I was very laterated to Dr Burkhardts comments concerning date courses in cbombatry I would like to emphasiso tho view that, at rubject advances and the principles involved bacone clearer It should be possible to discurd from the course creusios umounts of detailed memory Fort When the pruning ba been done the total volume of knowledge which we requlo of our three year course students hi pot in my ylew creenive and u oot apprezzably diterent to quantity from pre-mer require ment. It to view to correct It makes the question is to whether we are now discussing the overburdening of the con temporary underpaduate because larger proportion of uodendustes uro lere able to take their courbes fuccent fully than as previously tho ax Do Yo not have to ·68 rocognise that we have doubled the duraber d science students In our parents and that it is a collaumon experience that in ko domg we bave creased the proportion of lau able gudants? My own aperience illustrates the clocts of this dilatioa. First year courres in physxal chemistry which pace Professor Masogare largely concerned with principles of chemical phyno and which would have stimulated the majority of pre-war freshman chemistry class, in fact noor sumulato a very small section of the contemporary freshuman chaus and saxoetdolly unauthetise the remainder I think we have to realise that, with this greater aange at ability we must be prepared to take our first year students and classify them into at least two groups thoso apable of what may be called a mped three-year course, and those apablo of getting through tho aume amount of material ua muther reduced rate, the first year being proch more to the nature of an and on couro io that the school making the transition from the school attitude towards tho cubject to the university attitudo a bulo leus abrupt. I feel that that is an a tremely important point. The proper use of the vacation has been mentioned, and in thla connection I would like to Ay that I believe it is the university teacher s duty to make quite ptain to the under maduate that the students calendar raar is divided for the tako d convenienco coly into 24-30 weela o fortal taxching and hboratory wod, and 28-22 weeks, formally referred to as vacation, which, apart from time spent in recreation, are for reflection, further reading and tho privato cffort cosential for proper moderstanding one subject. A device, worthy ander application, which encounpes this desinable student attitudo b the end o vacation that then end-of-term or endal repica camination. My third point coocortis postgraduato courtes, about which we have great deal to lam from N Americt, and particuburty United States, current practice. Whilst I believe that it is bargely true this is a place of personal dogma--that to put 1 map in a laboratory with seven feet of bench paco and number of test tubes for three men, and to ut him to wort ai mal problem, is about the mout educative process to which we can publect him, I am also convinced that it is Decorary for us to encounge wider development of the out Look of research students by instituung postgraduato courpo work. This appilas both to those preparlog for magenhips and to thomo prepartog for doctontes, but the emphasis should bo diferent. Tbe codidate for a master's degree should be regarded as being in nating, and any reruks achieved during the research part of the traindog should be considered to be a deinble consequence, but secondary to the primary purpose ·69 a tnblog For the would-be PhD the cupboals might be reterad. In other crent the increasng number of bachelors galng forward to resarch degrees und thadoro rocelving como formal postindoate inaining thould make It pomblo to rotna to dannblo limits the moitation of the mattor prescated in the undergraduate contra Dr G B. JEFFERY (London) My medical friends have often tried to explain to me the doctrine o chrokcal rapora. bility and my understanding has gone to this point, that I can see that the condition of a putent of procal problems which require for their proper couldkeration ball dazen topnunking a perta, but it would not be the best way of ucating that situation for tho patient to be trundlod round from ono ward to tho not that everybody could have a go at him fa a couplo of houry md then pass him ou. Nether would it be an adequat polation to the problem for all thero aperts to bero tbati ay to the patient, and for the patient himself to decide the right balance. If ther of those thing happened tho patucat would be dead beforo the cod of the day It seems to me, bomover that exsctly that part thing b happenboy with the majority of oor andernadottes today and as a result thoy ard tutellectually dead before the end of ther countan There seems in dod arcumstances to bo nobody or hardly anybody surviving with this kind of overall clinical responsibility for the planning of the course of the individual Audent. I know that werendontes do recevo grat deal of belp from many persons to their ontrerutes, and help outside the fold at ther normal studies but, it we ato pars to have the kind of thing that Mr Wortenden hos out Hood Homo measure of planning seems to be abeolutely nocomary I would wholchartedly opport his statement that overy dernduto courte of study should go deeply somewbora And I would add to that the point which I think that Dr Amud Reid was making that the student should not laro his moderadato dodies without at laux somo conception d the part which is played in a wider area of human kron. ledyo by this little Bold af kaowledge to which bo bus roue deepty Il the two things uo to bo balanced in the Infinito vudety ponible sudah tiversity wd with the Infinite vunay at Individual abilities, somebody comewhere hus to tako the responsibility for this. It is an old university tradition that this kind of responsibilny should be amed. It is all survivaba the university which must take the bhume for Mr Wollenden, bo for gimo meron or other it seerd progi iro, to be detroyed 3 tofvery teachdot only on les centriscold ·70 becomes more and more a question of large departments uod highly-organised laboratories That kind of thog scenes brevitably to bull thu individual tutorul rapoosibility for tho student und so ko have arrived at a state of affain where it it be considered a good thmg that Profesor Massey s students of physic should know soorte chemistry the prescription and the dosage of chemistry will be prepared by the chemists and hos Audents will get what is good for theon in the ume way If it is a good thing that they should know some mathematia, the dosage will be prescribed by the mathematiclans. With the best will in the world it is very seldom certamly on the scientific side of the myersity that there is any opportunity for ano mind the mind a moc aholar to plan and to omst the Audent to plan hos work in such a way that he doo go deeply somewhere, and that be knows the significance of that into which he goes decphy As I have used a medical analogy I should like to my that there is no department of the miversity mort altal of tho things which I have cruched than the faculty of medicine. The CHARMAN I wonder whather at this point one of our visitors from America would are to glve his impression of the position in the USA? Professor A. N CHRISTENSEN (Unhead of Minnesora, Vlaring Fulbright Professor Unlerdry Collere of Nale Aberystwyth) I wish to say at the outset that I feel very much at hoor betenng to this discussion of univerly matten. We in the United Suites have been concerned with them same questions over since our first college opened its doon In 1636 I feel woefully unprepared to ay anything pertinent to the question we are now discussing, namely "L tho course of study overloaded ?" My uncertainty is due to several causen omoog thom are the very large number of univerdtier and colleges in the United States, tbe varying degree of *clectivity in the admission of students to those well over 010 thousand intuitutions, and the differing and often directly opposed views od what the function d the university is or ought to be It John Dewey were here to inter the question,"Is tho coarso of gody overloaded?* he would answer gure. "Certamly not," uod in giving hos urner he would be thinking of the typical American college in which the prolifention of courses is fur greater than it in Bdulsh univerzity Robert Hutchins, formerly President of the Ualveruty of Chicago would uy that the course of study is far too over looded In fact, he said that in Britain just a few weeks ago 10 Teachers College of Colombo Volverzlty were to concern 1 A2 ·Irell with the question, I suspect that I committee would be appointed, and that when the report of this committee amo in now course would bo initiated m order to securo additional data. Finally former President Elot Harvard Univerkty who generally is prsed a blamed for tuning the saled "froo clective system, were here, I believe he would answer the questron with, “I ft do not knor" I thunk o important to emphasise the different naturo of the Amennan ulven dy Lod what thes to do In the first place. Our socondary ar high schools and much low eclective than youn, and mtentionally so. Attendance at high achool is now almost univernal th .. Flowing from this om university are abo le sclectivetbo Intentionally so. Our univertdy counos ao Usually four year courses and not three I believo thut it is not until you reach the paduato school loval thuat valid comparkcu an be mado. There is ruanmg through our wholo approach to higher education in the United States the conviction, bused on that intricato complex of historical, social geognaphic and many ather factors, that many persons who are intellectually not a the superior or even bigb metapo groups aan bondit by going to the miventy ind that woczety can and does boetit from the attendance in poenal, I yrtt with this viow, but, u you will rondly see, it means that we have a difering vhow of what the university should do and benco what couran it bould offer to its gudents I am trud that this k all I can say relating to the answer of the United Staics to the question we bave rated the morning Prolator DM MacKON (Aberdeen) Thero one problem which I do not thlok has been menilooed tho mordme, but wluch certainly relevant to a definition of this notion of an overlorded curriculum. It the problem, of whilch we are very conscious in the philosophy departments at Aberdeen, of the joint bocours school in Scotland we have as the foundation du thing the ordinary degree. (I am talking about the faculty of art.) In the faculty dans le is the ordomary degrto wtoch bs the foundation, and I think that any ordinary MA Rodent who complemed of being over loaded would probably have the same ground on those of the young man wbo me to see Processor Penerb. Where the jount honoun schools are concerned, however the matta s nutha dulcrant There are in Aberdeen three joint boroun xchoob in which philosophy plays a punt paulosopbypychology pólosophy Englah, and philosophy-politla. The last two lo particular altract very good mes but there is no doubt that they find it ·72 1 grain at the lovel of honoun work, workog under and for three different and independent departments the department a logic, the department of moral philosophy and the depart ment of Envlish or polities, us to case may be. They have the feeling that a great many people are getting at them and this is nocentiated psychologically by the fact that they are comparatively few in number A good deal of this may be maple Olusion on the part of the student but it u an ulosion which can get in the way of dective work, and I know that it has done so to the ause a some food students. It has seemed to us, therefore, to be absolutely espental that there should be the closest possible co-operation w fotegration betrees those who admlobstering these courses. If that is achieved the thing con be managed, and actually I think, the gudents themselves come to see that what they considered overloadong by really something else, something less tangible and less uhy defined but still something which has got in the way of their work. are Processor GW PAFUND (University Grants Committee) Aro undergraduate courses a Andy Overloaded? I suppose that the answer to thoa question depends, at least to part, on what e muppose that the universities are trying to do. I should fike to opport that their contribution to the count munity should be that they tum out laders of thought in their particular spheres. Therefore they are to some extent to be jured by the extent to which their products are apablo o Independent mental processes ut a fairly high level. When I was an undergraduato a Cambridge, some of my friends who were on the arts sido med to draw a distinction between cogation and instruction, and they pointed out that the true function of the univerzity mu to any out educatron which meant that the student at long lart partly for homself by his own clots. One of the extential requisites a ducation is that the student shall have time and leisure, just unther nice letter in The Times this morniog paints out that if Audents at Institutes of technology are poing to secure : general education, they must be allosed. Lule time to which to secure it Jodged by the standard, nearly all annerlty courses to Medicla are grouły overloaded. I would say the amo about mont, or pertaps all, olvenzity courses in technology and I think that the same is probably true o mort anvenity courtes h cience. It may be true that at the older universities the arts Audents will have enough lelaure to become educated This matter of como importance at the present time, ben munkind has been aqulpped with proh dangerous toji. Why use the university courses ovaloaded? The first cause ·13 & tho growth of knowledge, but we to a little apt to forget that knowledo continues to or after the student laves the mirenity lo other words, it mally important that the Audent should are the universty montag bor to learn. I would ruggert, therdang, that the first remedy b to put up ma i prominent place, pataps in the relato room of the ontreality tha dictum a Kad Pearson that the true alm of tho tachar should be to Impart an approchatian a method nther than a bowledge of lacts. The rocond Iceson is the inwentation of moralo. As has roady been mentioned the medal curriculum lands cavily in overcrowdmg That la partly due to the Ingmenta tton a knowledo od to tho moldplaaton a prolottons, u Mr Wollenden Ah, bocame ach protocole to teach hw students as much of his subject us ho an, zod bo zbo requras that his now mbject shall have a special part in the cunina tion through which the students have to par to that a new hoop a provided throogh which orary student must jump. I forggart, therefore, as my secoad remedy for this overcrowding of the curriculum, that a society should be founded for the protection of pudeats from the mult plaation of professors. Dr K W SNES (Wales) Thero recons to bo greement amongst thouc prozent that more form of postgraduate petruction bs desirable mixclence rabject if the under pruduto couno b not to be unduly overloaded Indeed somo of the representatives of larger untrendy institutions have rdered to Fuch courts already un abgeco. It la mortunately a fact, bowter that in some of the smaller and more cattered university Institutions to this country tho staffs alrendy spending cough, if not too much, ume on the normal Instruction of the undergndonto. I bope that thbb pot an bappropriate podat to make me gathere, whech Lochodes many dirtingurihod representatives d' those responsible for tho moro poel aspects durandy pozicy The HUMAN Tho time for detwing this interesting docusion to close a very near There is time, bowever for one or two further speecta, if there buryono present who feels an Itabubio mp to address u. Mb J BLOXCAN (Leeds) I feel not in Ictible urre but KONSO of daty It is part o my duty to pick up 1 oumber of dropped witcher, ud this almost ponopolbo my time at komo nosotho yaar There are some group students that I find it very difficult to belp, and I feel that is the curriculum which is my encou There be the modent who, portups through past history k descicat la como requirement ·74 for the academic cooleat of the course Particularly in the ceoco faculty I am alten unable to find for that student the necessary time to give to tackling het problems in the univer sty terms, when abe has wilable to herself the personnel lo her department and, for m arts gudent on the librury Tho pocond type of student for wbom I am atten at a los to suggest bow the problem should be tactled is the border linc caso for bigher honours . Audeat Icets cxtended in meeting the requirements of the curriculum and does not ree her way to exploring what lies between ber und Art-clan degree. I feel that it may be true that the curriculum is atklictory for the arenge xudeat with no problem elther of how to oli in a map or a bow to make to a higher standard of scholanhip. but there are I gubmit, those two classes of Hudent for whom tho curriculum an the whole is not sufficiently elastic to allow for privato xodies. Mr B A EDWARDS (London) I feel that it is quito Impracticabło to generalise ut all on this topic. I um thinking ut the moment of one particular degree mbject on the Univerulty of London for which new regulation were introduced recently and the deplomblo result that for the fire generation of students at rus nocessary to go into reverse and Alter tbe construction of the whole degree. At the other extremo we have the now general degreo, and the students there have a certain amount of spare tlmo to think during the period of their undergraduate studies. Wo ought to consider carefully whether the students are giving themselves too much to do owing to the way in which uploa and other activities have tocroused to recent years. It has Dow becomo a question of whether man shall accept office la the imkon fociety of shall continue to bopo for a good honoun degree. So much is the the ase that I wadenband that the Unra a Students is suggesting to the Minstry of Labour that the holding of high office should permit the attendion of deler ment for one year beyond the normal period I would also cmphonse that more should be done to get gudents to read out do tho syllabus, particularly in the hktory and philosophy of their subject. Wo have bard of the posst bility of teachers being interested in some uspocts of their Robject and arrying a research after leaving collego. I feel that there are posubilitia la the history and philosophy a science, and it might be poolble for gudents to Ictala their Interest to research even after they have gone to a school to teach, and to Koep ther boterest to the publet green daring their teaching cucer ·Mr J F WOLFENDEN I replying to the discredon, wald There are only two points on which I should like to ay u tom worde, packing them out from the many tromcy waluable und interesting contributions which baro boon mudo thu mooming. I should fint liko to pay a word about what a, in my opinion, the tremely important paggation made by Proteror Amand Red and referred to later by Dr Jeffery and othen. I my bo domy an injustice to Protetor Armand Red by trying to panporuso very boefly what I understood Hm to ay but I understood him to man that the abilty to co whero in the wholo petten a partkukr be fits is one of those abilities without which a good edend ought not to laro the univerzity The proche point at which this synopuc attitudo b firet brought to light a Inculatod a encouraged to the course of Audent's Me is dady I very difficult question to me I must confess that I can imagine tho borror which that will co to momo minds, but, having toed to do almost crectly this with dath fotos to schoob over perod of about fifteen years, I know that the reason why that cama borror an obvious and satural onc. * What the food " I am uked, of trying to give a philosophical uod sypopic attitude to youngsters who, by tho nature of the chosen cannot yet bare uy villa knowledge of a perlenco to fit mto a pattern?" Thero a romo strength in that objection, but, if ibs pressed too burd I should like to ask when this synoptic or philo wophical attitude to poing to begin, because from what wo have board this morning I have the impression that some of the Rudents about whom wo have been talding are not a great deal moro matut or aperienced a knowledgeable than a good may boys and gluta pot only in sath forms, but a good daal lome down than that. If we were to be very bonet, which in this room man Dever afford to be a good many of us would any that a certain number of our colleagues who are in their fire two or three yan of the high oilce o collageship are not really that much moro mature than fome a tho gudents wbom they us well us we are touching I find, si am pure that you do that the older wo pot in run the more atinge o uro in pemkung tho odjectives which rebalo to maturity to be given to anybody younger than our ctres. I have to and feel ing that it wo are not ardul wo shall rule out in the schools this busties of trying to get a philosophic or synopuc ar maturo approuch, and we halay that there is no time for It in the undergraduato yean" und " what u ondergraduates ercept overown schoolboy and schoolgirls? Is there a poolbility that after the end of the cours degree course is the right timo? Or k too much to hope that, Dot # 2 ·76 extraneously stabbed-on course but es an attitude in the tercher by wbom we hope that the leames may be blected thu nodon would go on ull through the court, and not only In the university but it school us well? I am certain from one a two aperiments and some cxperience, that it annot be done by external compubory adhesion but only from inside. by the taches My second point very briefly & tho I did veature to uk about tho end on pature a school and unuversity courses, and I mit ay that I was a little frightoned-though I can well understand the reasons for it-by Processor Nemarks com ment, which was I think, relaforced by one or two other. about the consequace of our receiving students from such great variety of school. I know that to be true and I know the difficulties which It creates but I should like to all atten than once port to the danger which Immediately artsen if we uko the line of uying." They come from such a great variety of schools and ther mandards are so different that we most LAUM nothing." Is not that almor the amo as Ayiog.“ Wo must go back to the beginning and try to teach them the whole lor lo the next three yean? If we do that wo shall bave Overcrowded ryllabman, but we shall have something worto than that. If we ay that we must sumo nothing and must go back to the beginning, e pod school will ask What is the two of our trying in our nexth form if the universities ay that we have uaught our people nothing, or if they upon that that is so? AU that we are trying to do in our exth form will go for nothing Very soon the school will, from do grumilement or disappointment, become a little less anger and enthusiastic about their axth form year and their standards will go down, and then, us a result o our action in Aying that o must to nothdog, we shall reach the point where we hall indeed not be able to worme anythog, because all those who unive, whether from good schools or bad, will bave worked up to but not a whit beyond the minimum require ments which wo lay down. I annat bebeve that that would really be a good thing for university studies. The CHARMAN I now mytte Proletsor Mesrcy to give us his concludons. Professor HSW MASSLY It b a fittle dkicult for me to stato my conclusions, but they are. In fact, coctly tho samo uwben I spoke aller There are however fow remarks which I should like to make in order to clarify certain aspects at the discut-00. The question at the attitude a student has been naked and this is a course, a very important matter I think it is ·true that the station has been more dificult doce the war beans at the rather greater dilution Thero bas not been a substantial increas mong the first des gudents, but there um been an overall loctano in numbe which lands to dulution, and that is the source of the dificult problem of havtog to face a cha with very moven natuni 16 lty it may well be that a one speaker parated, to shall have to coryder breakdog up the course which are provided into different categoria, In order to deal with students whomo possibile attain ments vary substantially The attitudo of the students to atten, ove m honours Fabjecta una factory They uro Dot recepulve. They will never try to see the object ma wbolo ar be that there iro other things which they are required to do and that their fubddlary objects are given to them for some rauon. I har food this in the Univerdty a London in phydia Tho Audents are forcod to a far un competion on their first your rubulary mathematics, and they have Uso to attend a second year couro in mathcoatla with no camination. It kas no cuention to By that when attendance at that cocood year courses all that I havaimed they get abmolotoły poching out of it, apart from a very tow u tho top. In order to meet this situation, I have been forced to taptitute locul canin tion and to thraten that count will be taken at their performance in this in giving them testimonials, and so on. It Amazing to see bow cauch ettna pod und viloo come from tho mero fuct of the entence at this examination The whole question demantations bs me a which ones vic change greatly us the years go by There b a real maloo in mpooing deplino on students to this sort of way Tho nature of the cumination may be different and the camina tion liselt may be bad, but the discipline of having to sit for it of great value to the studenti, la forcing them to do some One thing which itates me about student me in tho uniretulty that the gudents art very poor Indeed in providing for themselves an uondoe lo specialiation Too uodent socletea in many universities are linked to tbe subjects to which they uro specialising Thero a mathematian society phyac rockety a chemistry society and to an, and thero Do worthwhile contact between them. Why ut long do they dot have a neco club of something of that fort, which is more peocral? However they will not do it, and it is dificult to amngo it for them, boats are doa not not to Interfere with rochettes d the wind. So far as the tutorial question, nebed by Professor Jottery is concerned, thng ought to be easier to the barre Klerce department, which comedays has a stat more than adequate ·78 to cover undergraduate teaching responsibiltos of the rul kind, to that it should be possible to arrange for more personal tutorial work more easily This more difficult to muller departments than in others, but I think that the size of the department k Do excuse, and should be an opportunity It has been pointed out that processos arc art to forget that all their students after three years are not going on to do rescarch. There is the important point, however that nona days the number of people accepted to research kanther greater fraction than before. One comment on the whole question of majority is that after three years ne mill annar lodge those who will prove to be best la thar prolerion, and even those wbo do not mature npdly mou to get secondchas honours may come to the fore after three years. We must be moro libenl than the past on the question of admlung people to do research, allowing at the same time for the fact that we are educating them further in doing to 1 thank that the Idea of the M.Sc. $ a good one, but there aro difficulties of a financial kind and in regard to delerment. If ward to allow people to do a fourth year for tho M.Sc. thero must be adequate financial grants to enable them to carry on and # mu bo pouhle to go deement for them to carry on in this way There is no need to ay laything further on the question on which Mr Wollenden and I appear to disagree, the question of tho schoob and where to start the courses. I do not support that we should assume that they have lamt nothing at school but in science subject, and particularly ono rich a physic they have to have the pondplas expressed to them in tho fashion which is going to bo bosed throughout the rest of tho course and it may be a different Lohion from that which they boyo latint at school I feel that they should have thero things cupounded to them, asuming that they have some knowledge but not assorming that they have the attitude which nomni them to have m following the principles of the subject I do not forget that this should bo dono with facts but just with principles. I do not beliere that the stood will fed that this completely tales tray the need for thetr shath form course. In the exth form they are giran real freedom to Hody tho subject, what they actually do in detail is not to very important. The CHANIAN It remains for me to thank all the speakers for the share la maling the restion such an interesting and and la particular to thank our two opening speakers, Mr Wolfendea and Pralessor Mukcy ·18 THIRD SESSION SATURDAY AFTERNOON DECEMBER 18TH THE RETTRING AGE FOR UNIVERSITY TEACHERS Chalman HR RON D.Sc., FRS Protector Emattus of Physics and Vice-Chancellor Untretulty of London The following sales of oddess were drculated prior to the conference A. Summary of Addren by Mr H. R F HARROD. ! This matter should be booked at pusrity Crom the polat od vow of national need. We have to taco the fact that to the next few decades Braaln will have a population d growing avenp age. Thls matter has recently been brought Into prominenco by the Report of Sir Thomas Philips Committoo. The proming proportion of relatively old persons wol meu that an Locrenuing proportion of the product altbomo of wacking yo will have to be taken from them to mupport their sontort. All should play their part in giving facilities to the older people to contribose work according to their ability to it in cortan auses this maun inconvenience. Tho universitas munt dot hold back on the contrary conuaming is they propicably do, the most highly odooted part of the population, they bould be the first to yppreciato and adapt themselves to the Dow dtuation that coolronta un 2 Fan bayo bata pressed that an extenson of the rotirlog apo will be un obstacle to the entry and promotion at the younger revention mto the academic profesion. Actually the expandon of the universities that wij coatate to go forward will give theth a greater gumber of openiops than they ever had beere. But oren spart from this und opposing tho vairendties to be quite stationary in the number of positions offered, the younger generation would #i haro greater opportunities than they ban ever had before ovint to the changtorg 193 composition ull Within do dostant ·dato the number retirements per thouønd persons reaching tho age of admission to uplyerzlty apporotments may bo aspected to be nearly twice u fut u it was in the Inter-war penod. There will be do lack of opportunity for youss people, aod this applies also along the line of progressive idnaactical 3 Wo come to the question of the suitability of persons for academic service doring the few years after the age of unty five While in conte respects there may be declino of apecity m other there may ovea be in lacrease in tho urts Lubjects, orellowocus of judgment and depth of understanding and tho eupreme qualites. The capacity for expounding sub rects to a lacid and stimulating my may continue to grow with the growth of experience. In arts abjects, knowledge of the most up-to-date researcban is relatively unimportant 4 In science the mattor may be somewhat diferent. It ponible that the older man fods it difficult to adapt bls mlad merapidly advancing object, or to have good jode ment about the most important llocs of new research to relation to it. But surely the skiler Kcleatist rera a good los DOM:0 purposes? Thuba aase for adaptag the internal organbaton A man could carry on with proiettorial duties oven when no longer responsible for baituting research in a Laboratory From this point of view oven sixty-five may be too old & retiring 480. Profesor relieved of responsibility for a Laboratory could still give yahuable lecturas op besko prioclples 5 La both the arts nod ciences more of tho ever growing barden of administration pd committee wort could be devolved upon the color people At present too many men fa thot promo of ufo ed abity to research are rubject to the growing encronchment of administrative duties with lo tho unvente. Critics may object that this would be putting all the power rowlitog from membership of Andry.com mittees into the hands of member people. But it must always bo renombered that administration cod committee wort uro matter of socondary importance in tho life of a univerzity Provided that decisions taken do not tower scadenk aan dards and are in accord with common sense they will be good enough The time of younger people should be left free for their primary duties to the greatest possiblo citent B. Summary of Address by Professor J F BAIEL The case for raising the retiring yo anafranity teaching oficers an be considered under three heads. Would it be in the laterest of (a) the community having regard to the ·81 ipoing character of the population, (b) the officon themselves, and (c) tho Direnity? (a) If there is to argument for employmg older people, the best solution may not be to use them to the smo mock or for the Am amount of work. If a touchlot oft.ct has Loxt bis cffectiveness at 65 ho should catbly pre up his post, if he has not there are plenty of worthwbie activities open to him and be does not come to bo i productive member d the community (b) Tbo financial adnuntages which would 10cmuo to . teaching officer from the extn yoan on full stipend and Improved woulty on retirement must be welghed against tho fact that appointments and promotions would occur hater throughoat his career (c) That may be no endeoco a any particular biolonal or paychologlal changes between the 101 of 65 rod 67 but there u & weight of well toformed opinion that most teachen powers wine appreciably betree those your the amo applies, in tho kn lan to cart and the direction of resarch. To narto the retiring ago will therefon diminish to over-all electroca of the untrealty s lo tortitution for higher education and research. To onlverdty officers tho Interest of the university should be paramount Thc yog people of today faco many now problems, including thoso thing from the increasing apo of the population. It would surely be wrong to dimbalsh the elicioney of tbo very institu toos wboso pelacpal function is to oducato tho young to Laco these problems The CHAIRMAX For the afternoon debate we art forta uto to bastog tro distinguished speake tung stisod diametrically opposite rets, one an econombat od one an anchocer We have Chairman who retired before the existing Dormal ure and wo is therefore donterested, while tho two opeoing speakers to both suiclenty for remoored from my retiring ago, welct has been narded to take a perfectly objective view I an do no better non than to all on the first of the two opening spater, Mr Harrod. HRF HANOD MAF.BA, Student And Totor Christ Church ipd Nutiold Radet ln Intanational Economia Ualterity of Oxford I come to my opeong remarks qalto umabanedly is presenting this problem to you us ooc a national interest Ro are aow u ute population. This procebus been fotot on for como ime We have a pattern ·which is qalto different from that to which our various lostitutions and customs were adapted in the nlacteenth century The figures abxh I am golog to givo ant probably qolto lumiliar to you, but I shall repeat them. At tho turn of the century to 1901 only 47 per thouand of tho people were over 65 By 1921 it was 60 per tborgund, and by 1947 It was 104 per thouand. Then It began to be more steeply In 1952 it wa 112 per thothand in 1962 it will be 125 par thouard, uod in 1972 it will be 150 per thooand. This great change prescats a major problem to our domestic conomy It is probably the most important domestic problem beforo ns. It means that the working population has to Fustain a larger aumber a old people, and a very patly larger oumber and that means, # you look at it in a broad my that an ever growing Inction of wbat they produce, their products god services, bas to be set sado to sustain the old people That man that, expocially in the two decades boud, The Innts o progress, lostead of going otirely to raising the condition of the people, will bo poverely down upon to Bustan old poople, which will have the elect of diminishlog tocentive and hopo amongst those who work for themselves, becaibo as they work harder and more oli clently and produco more this is supboned away from thom. Tho natural thing to do theroforo is to consider whother the old people cannot themselves contributo something to aux the burden, were they are all able und willing. I would my at the outset that I do not think that you bero contemplata cren en todiroct clement of compulsion. The Idea of citeoding the retolog ugo will be on a purely voluntary bach, 19 the reaso that man will be entitled to retiro at tho proozlsting age with whatever pension expectations ho may have and no monal or Gnancial pressure will be brought to bear on him I bow willing to continue, the questioo will bo redaced to one of ability to which I hall come in a for minutos This is a very gruvo and fundamental natioan problem, homover and I do not think that the unfyorutles a stond undo aod say that they aro going to coosult only thetr own efficiency and convenience. I do not think that this proposal for raising the retrtog ugo will bovalve loss of oilicet cy but even if it did, ta such pery gave abooul problem athb tbero a moral obligation lorolved. If mur breat out the aniversities do not my "We ure moro important, and most do what pulls ourselves.On the contrary the uplversities contribute, Uke everybody eke, to tho we cifort. Lo this great internal problem which is before us today it is for the unverdtles, wblh prosumably represent tho most highly edocated part of tho population and an therefore well der ·stand bow verloor bo probleme, b, and understand it wel la HYROCO of others, to show thek spprodatke of it by doing Kmethlat about it That my litto moni) scordion. Whatever the couralexco of tho patrenia may way it ba question of puta mon! dpty for them to wote their contribonon, loose with other prolendons uod tudes This extension of the retiring pe will become very ndosped, Red they mou make their con tribution even at no cost otocoartanoo. The urguncat bas been pat lorward that it hard on tho yoteger federation and that the cat polat with white I wish to deal l too old fosc conunue for later than wu expected, it is said the younger people will be held back and will not get protetsonbps Rod to forth Wo camot deny that is atensica of the retirar as I ftuct diminish the pambe of years which would otherwpo Occur but it would trc qute wrong to Ropposo bat this more will mean that the prospect for younger people roing to be worte dag that to take they have been imus Lored and have had in the past. On the contrary to prospect for the AT poopte u moking to be very mucts better There is the obvious point that the onryersities and their mirez expanding rapidly, these stes es capazdu, so that the pumber of academic hoba per thoumod are the populations is npklly LOTERO Some people have taked whether it is ponible to cupsod it tho paco requtred without losing home laing of quality la the body of fastern It is to be boped that that an Bo done, but it ha por possible to brust that adde at betag a problesa which does box extrt. This capampion Itself, therefore in the young an opportanly of Bndine appointment which they would otherwie ich Apart frou si that and CTER wppoalog ubat ibero uso cipapnoa ba the universitar, and that the number of posttion in the univerks ma dortiged to retain quito sabonary for the xx two or three decades octertheless the young Ku have an unprecedented opportunity oving to the change for the apo composttion of the population livell. At this point 1 mm pro yo no matter I un poto bo prvo you only ont row of figures, because I us puro e a pleibon of statisto would be welcome. I havo rood into this matter carefally and autoa pode troable over L bescanse la view of the datingaished charter of this audience I thought that I wus dae to them that I would do so la getting this column of Ayures I have taxed mnel on the Royal Commission on Population Altbooth there be it to acto recent toformation obtalpablo I thought it best to do that because the Roya) Comandada pel bio tols que los much more thoroughly than anyorre els tus donk, od boateso they ate an impor ·tlal, objectivo vky od also besme in this very tricky question of vital statistics It is essential to derive One Hugures from one source only and not to have score than one. The only thlay of Importance that has bappened waxco tho Royal Commission reported in fact helps my argument, and thai Ls the renewed fab in biths. At the time that tho Royal Commission reported, we were all on the later part of the bigb lovel of births which started during the mar and went on for four or five years after tho mar Since then the births have dropped, not quite to the pre-war level, but to a level not far above it, and they have been runnmg like that for the last three or four year. Where there a doubt about tho fature population in the ord of the Royal Commission therefore, wo should look on the passimostle ado which is of course, the wide favounble to my argument There 1 000 further point which I should like to mention. I am gomg to give you these projected figures for tho futuro The Royal Commision went very thoroughly into this and worked out projections on the basis of 16 alternative potul billtlen. I have looked at all these 16 and tato combinations oat of all of them. I have scrutioised the Agures and taken tho figuro which is most favomblo and the figure which is loost favoarable to my argument I take tho apo group from 60 to 64 es showing impending retinls during tho acrt filve years, and the age group from 20 to 24 us showing Impending intvals, the apdidates a aspirants. I confeu that I have takoa those aro-year periods because the statisticlans happen to work with them, but I think that the periods in question are the most suitable for our purpose 20-24 may be taken as the people looking for jobs, and 60-64 us those about to retire I have taken the year 1931 i mld lnter war year us 100 uod I give you the ratio of ompeodlog retinal io fmpendog urink, fo that the higber the numbers, the more favourable It is to the younger people I call this the Indor of opportunity for the young. This mda o opportunity roms like this look ing backward from 1931 for which it 100 we find that in 1921 It wts 843 and in 1901 It w 60- looking forward from 1931 in 1941 It was 129 to 1948 It was 139 for 1952 I give two thgures, the most and the least favoanbe, 155 150 for 1962, 193-181 for 1972 186-171 The figure for 1972 coma out slightly lower owing to the pat creure in births during tho wer and the immediate post wir period. The children born at that time will be growo op In 1972 Tbo estetico of my argument is that so for opportunity for the young s concernod, oven if the univorito remato quite stattooary that opportunity to fotog to go up in tho proportiod which I have mentioned, metly owing to the app ·100 n compodion of the population I will stye those Egures in tabular form, because they seem to be the car of this problem 1901 60 1921 845 1931 1941 129 1948 139 1952 152.5 (mean figure) 1962 187 1972 1785 lo other words, the young people are going to have thret times the opportunity that they bed at the openint of the century and nearly twice tho opportunity that they had in tho tier war years. In the light of those figures, I pray then we may bear no more of thu cry baby talk of the poor youdy people who aro berg kopt out of their legitimato afperations by the wicked odd topoys polog on for two or three years longer I must ay something about the question a tho suitability of people of 65 or whatever It may be. It could of course that despite the national poed, und daspite the opportanity for the young about which I have been talking. If people at the age of sys are manifestly nelichool that would override my car The mitability of those people is, of courx, i comptes question, but I would subrant that although m como respects thelr cficiency may bo declining - need not deny that otbet respect it is not deallning. and in some respects It may even bo Rid to be incang I think that baro wo mit draw a very bly distinction between the ur ribjects and the lence. In the arts rubjects the great qualities required are mellow.ca of judgment and depth d understanding in the arts subjects It does not matter if professor of 63 be rather weary of reading to Latest porodicals and keep up to date. The object of the orts education is to give people understanding and we all Loox men of great judgment and windom who retire and Wo icgret that the nant femtion of students will not have the opportunity to make cooract with thetr mlnde Very often the power of clar peech and apt phrax, and oven tho power of fimulating speech, is not on the dom-prade u the fire of 65 We look at other professions sucha u politics and the by and we ind that the pone pression to not one hich stets to decline at that time of life Another polat which ont be bordo in mind is that we ute pot compartog the powers of men of 66 or 67 with thetr power in the very pre life. I hall not venture to ay wober the prime of life is 40 or 50 but it must not com ·put them with the time when thetr powert were at tho pout, but with what their powers were at the pe o 25 Tbero may be many young people in the 20s who are doing vital research and who are toll a stimulatog deus, bot it not my improdon that pooplo m the 20 are at the top of their lecturing form by any man. I do not think that tho youngest batch are the best locturer. You have to compero thore older peoplo of 60 to 67 years of ago with tho pooplo who will replace them at the age of 24 or 25 and I lovery doubtful whether the older lectures are inferior hadeed, I would ay that although it may be the case that in certain respects there is a declino thero ud other important rospects, certainly on tho at ddo ta which the powert are not decllamg ind may even still bo rising In the case of conce It has been put to mo strongly and I appreciate the polot, that it may often be vory dufficult for a professor a 65 to tumble to the real lomadnou of the latest thops which come along in cloaceand be may not therefore, bo the kaal perton to direct research projects Ho may India on golng on Doggbry dead horme, und may not rooliso what, from the point of vlow of a rapidly developing subyact, are the vital ways in which research an proceed. I fool that there may bo tome truth in that, but purely this la a matter for Internal adjustment? There is so much to bo dopo to . ualversity Wo should be ablo to Ay that for lobe carrying responsibilty for no rearch projects there should be a cortan roting ago and 65 or even 60 may be too old for that pork. Wo muy bo prepared, however to put our clros to a little inconveniaxco to assist with a national problem, and with little trouble we can mango that tho responsibility for initiating research and directing laboratory Noll come to an od at a certain ago but the scientist an 90 00 giving lectures on busk principles and cooducting seminar thoro Is so much to do to a untversity that thero should be enough to give him omployment until later age. That objection with regard to scientisti, therefore, can be mot by an internal adjustment and dould not affect what wo do on the broad love I dould like to my few words about admlotnation and committee wat in untvernities. I mwa spaat ray tactfully haro, bocause claudy this audience is somewhat blased on the ado of an interest in tho various administrative probloms of universities. I am guro, however that oraryono baro will fool that there is too much commutteo work comlog on to tho younger people man enpaged on importuat rescurct who I dong his estantial to work in his mos ud 30s should bo u far u pouble kept of committee wort Ho has to have a bond of teaching and cumining, and if you put committoo ·work on top of that you may trustnite the real work which la to tre object of the unlarity pamely his rerarch. I should like to speak personally for a moment, and I bopo that it will not be logarded u in bad tada I myself in the 30. wu econged to do a part deal o committoo work in Osord. People amo zloos kod ad, "We want young men to p on to thls iad thuat body In my 30x I spent i rery high proportion of my timo on administration and committee wort: I deply regret that It nu a mistako oo my part to bave yielded to lattering advances and allowed mycell to get Inpoled to that extent, bean aw lets tho thumo alip by ano will miss opportunities for really crativo work which ought to be ones main preoccupation u that I would therefore ay that the ideal would be that no one should go on to any committee at all under the age of 40 Thero ta quito enough to do in other ways Some people may ay "That moogtrom. You are as gosting that all the power should bo put into the hands of the old peoplo." I do not attach very much toportance to this question of power I a young men to keen that the old peoplo shall not have the power be has missed his true vocation, let him go into politics or government, whero power mattan Power should not be important in the untveration, Thero are two thing that are noctuary that academio son dards should bo maintained and that common senso bould be applied That is what wo aspect from the decolons of committees, and it would be wrong to day that pooplo of Over 40 aro apable of maintaloing there tho thup. II, there foto you are in any doubt about the fall employment of tho oder people, I would Ay that there is the vast and growing and todeed oppresyo ms of administrative work to bo done in the adverten, and they an take a fuler sharo In all that work I have now exceeded my ting, but I should like to reapt. tulata. I ey that oven if it was inconvenient Us, froon national point of vow there bi moral obligation on the part of the universities to do something to meet this great national difficulty wtuch has come to ou The younger peoplo are golog to get for more opportunities of advancement than over before owing to the changing ue composbon of the population. There are fough respects in which peoplo oro thoroughly weful and clicseat at the up of 65 to justify our contlading to mato o of them for further pedod. Tho Chanux Wo mot all bo mort pateful to Mr Hatod for the dar uod Ioclaivo may in which ho has pat the che for crtending their own ranity kyke. I now ·havo plazaro bo calllag oa Procesor Bater to do hils best to destroy that cause Protetor I F Baca O.B.E. MA Sc.D D.Sc., Fellow Clare Colegs, and Professor of Mechanical Sciences, Univer sity of Cambridge I have never liked admutting that I am at a disadvantages but I confess that I feel so now As the Chaimman pid in hos Introductory remarks, this question of the retiring ee is somewhat personal und us Impossible to adopt an entirely objective approach. Mr Harrod bar given us impressive statistics, but I do not believe that there ut any really irm data on the efficiency of teaching officer Ho I feel, was in a somewhat happter position, because ho was able to take a badlier view of the activities, or some of tho activities of university teaching oficers and even of administrator. Ho could have quoted auses mod have named mea of distinction wo have continued to give able kerence efter the ago a 65 They at onceptlocal, but it is dearly AOC so ausy for me particularly at this Christmas season, to retort po personally I must content myself with generalities, and largely with tho fruits of my own experience. I do not think however that there is very much spanntlog Mr Harrod from me In his summary ho urges that "All sbould play their part in glving facilities to the older peoplo to cootribute work according to their ability"-und thoro ure the key words "ccordos to their ability_cvent in certain cases this mauns bconvenience." I believe that those uo koy words, too Turnms to the summary of my own address, I way there that the cause for raising tho retiring age of unlvenalty lachlor oficers an be considered under three heads. Would it be In tho mtered of (a) the community (b) the officers them selves, and (c) the university? With ropard to (a), if there is an argument for omploying older people the best plution may not be to use them for tho am wort ac for the amo amount of work. There is no upuoxent between us about the need and adviability of phytog people the opportunity to work longer. If ach co.se could be measured on its merits there would bo do trouble, and whoro university has couryo to the mechvary to consider and decido cach as there seem to bo no problem 11 man able to arry out his university doties at the tre of 65 be could be kept on but it be conot arty them oat, clearly be strould relinquish ho post This does not man, however that be annot make further watributions to tho nations dort. Theno uro for of us who annot do something useful us we grow older The process starts loos before 5 A man may reduce the afort which ·ho say ho puts ito mearch, und tend to teach more. Later bo may redoco the time ho spade on the urduou rock of collaco teaching and turn more to committee rock. Tho Crux of the quation is how far and for how long these process an be allowed to go on the comentat complaatod organbatoo d untvudty I belloro that Mr Hamrod ka tban sobre a long my oren Hm certain are the mans Incontrouence. This is where I begła to dlagree. The dociston must be made on the ban at productivity you will forgłyo my using that word m connection mth ictdemic work, it should not be made on the humanitanın proud of keeping the old men bappily anployed m their other work. Sartly us wo are tho most highly-educated part of the population wo an bo trusted to pand our declining years happily enough, if the ocoa amlo conditoru Aro etistectory That bringe mo to my recond baadhe, the economic pro mont. Thus, I feel, waghed most haavily beu Cambodge decided to be the ago af retirement. There are obvious drantages to the older man in moutdog autrs years on tuli spend-tboco antre youts d plenty followed by much Improved annulla on retirement Thero of course, tho other sido of the case, but I bave not the counpo to advance that this afternoon, her what Mr Harrod and According to him the younger non havo much greater opportantes beloro them in the coming year. They may be do warto od but the people wbo will be work of are the uadorgraduate This brings me to my third bead, whether an Ixcreare in tho retton apo would be la tho interests of the onlyentity a * whole. Thu is the serious question. Our products are so Important and valuable that wo aamot countenus.co to mo of moro blant or rusty tooke Mr Harrod Remu sufled that whilo mi tomo respects there may bo declino in apacity utter 65 vo far out sobjects to concerned this does not instance, is relatively animportant I un prepared to tako bu word for this so far u the art o concerned, at least for the moment, but be poes oa to By that m sacoco tho matter may be somewhat different. Well, I can aspiro you that to touco the matter ti most certably different Whether it is that toothus ut healer or have to work harder at our subject, with its boundaries over widening and making panter darruands on whatever It may be, I un coavioced that it is not to find a cleotist in doirenity work whore power and stot waning cooskenbly before be racha tho 150 o 65 Ho may be capablo of doing my more yem of valuable wort after that it if bo partoo his Bed, but poch uro the demands on most ou today that, icmembering ·tho whoło nogo of teaching, research and administration it would be better for the teachng of the undergraduates we touch, for tho research worker we should lospire, and perorally for the departments wbkch some of us look after If we went at 65 It would be better #ih in many as I we could be periuaded to go carlet This , of course, my own loprestion from observation of clenco departments in several universities, and particularly from ten years or more of laumate contact with a large and unusually ablo staff in 000 department With very low. ciceptions, the ured man on retirement, when relieved of bla univeruty duties, continues to work, and to work most efbciently usi tul-timo research worker or sa college tacher The country is not deprived of his services. In fact, compubory retirement at 65 means that he replaced by another more able to carry the beavy burden which unrveruty wort represents today and blmself freed at an ago wben it a fill posuble to become eficient palo in a narrower fed My observations, buvo covered professors, readers and Lecturers. The wordt danger come, however from the bead of a scientific department. Whatever quarter the universities may give to others, the hand of 1 department should bo allowed none of all the run-down univerzity departments which I have seen Icon Member novo wblh got into that fato duo to too much handling by young men always the troublo could be traced to head belog retamed too long I have no doubt myroll about scientists. I am not prepared to bo w dogmatic where humanists are concerned, but not all of thom your with Mr Harod view Let me quoto what one of them hus uld. This is from Sir Emest Barker's book Are and Youth. Nobody could mapest that Sur Erport Barker showed premature signs of fullng CarTy Dealing with bbs retirement in the autumn of 1939 ho says Retirement the colocided for mo with the begtalog of period of da yeurs of war und just for that very reason my retiremcot was only partial and I found mysall engaged in activities of varioui LOTUS and kinds durlog tho whole of that period. War som moas all men to work, oyed retired professors, and within 1 month of retirement I found myself butted by the Vice- Chancellor of Cambridge to it u univerdty director of studies for some courses of instruction which were being planned by tho War olibice for the benefit of colected oficer." He goes on At Roux leogth to descrlbo the counts which ho Fave, wd be anys "One other thing which I learnt not only from the fourth coura, though I noticed it particularly fron that counts, but also from the other three, wus that I ·91 had nor taller any trom, or at way rate kost my old touch with the mind of the underaduate studeat I trupine that this was a matter of ago and, I am Hght to that as I soc another room for the retirement de verrerity tacher when he tactics bo middle uttan Ho cause to fed utb- Laction in contact with young mlode, and, what t mort serious still, bo ste to be able to use them atufacta At any rate that w my caperience The andergraduate, I felt, was will * able us crer be loved to play with hens, but be wui apt, after al to play" I must ay that I quite serboardy believe there a weight of woll-informed opman that most teacher powers and intereita do wae appreciably though they may not realise the thomelies, before the use of 65 To rabo the reum 4ge generally will therefore dintorsh the overall effectiveness a bo universtet at a most critical stugom our hostory Out personal concomic dificulties dould not my us. Untversity teachers a class have never put the financial needs before the pood of the imattution stich they crve Retirement from a university post need not mean the loss of a man ciicient cryice to the community The kidest trangtoo aan be brought about by retaining the man in ibo university circle but reducing his position and duties, as Mr Harrod hus mtgested. I am not prepared to go all tho way with him. however I would not have retired men in charge of adminı Antron Let them do executive wort by ul mean, od they can find way of relievlok us of the weight of committee wort, *o much to better but I am not very happy about that I do not want to see the active man blanketed with an even denne byer of praconal committee mea than crkos today Cambridge decided by a very small majority that it mort bo all or nothing iod that no use could be made of retired lenching officer I cannot underland the dificulty bat there it #y, and to many of us to Cambridge I strupele on far beyond our prime until we are 67. We could of courso retire at 65 or arller but wil we? I believe that the most miserable years of my life. I purvive so 100f wil be between the yean 1966 and 1968 when my arteries will havo hardened to och an crtent that I shall not be able to let ta in spate of all I bare old in 1954 I urre tactient ma ocho o TT dues to guard themselves from my dilemma The CLADUMAN Thank you very much for extremely frank, pertemal od polated stitcoient. The sabject is ook open for discul ·92 The Rt Hon La CHORLEY OF KEKAL (Apociation of University Teachers) Professor Baker hit the nel on the bad sten bo and that we are not the proper data to allow os to come to a tkactory decision on the difficult question My plea fool be to the psychologists to particular to devote good deal of time over the next few yean to trying to Hort out some objective method of discovering whether at 60 65 67 or whatever the age may be people do rally begin to fall of in meatal port to i marted way I thint that Mr Harrod's method of taking the population as a whoto and praying in and the Phillips report and so on. Is beside the question The fact that people are nopy physically better and living to much older area is really utterly irrelevant to the question of their mental ability and apacity to do the work of univerzity teachers. I thbok it is essential to have over the next few years pomo data which will cuable us to farm a really objective judgment on this matter We are 211 getting to stage when we are o personally interested in it ono way or the other that we are not able to forma auch a judgment I feel that a good deal of Mr Harrods arrument wu ntbet specious. The age of 60 or 65 must have been fixed no doubt a long time ago, beauso peneral esperience seemed to point to that sort of age u boing tho at which people. mental quality and ability to use that mental quality to the teaching of students, bep to fall of in poch a way that they ought to retire It may well be that that happens to some peoplo ut 60, but it is certainly not general to the council of the Arocution University Teachers and in our committee meeting to have found, rather to our curprise, that in a number of university Institutions there is all in exktece compulsory retiring age of 60 at which mea and women are in fact in the present year being compulsorlly retired. I great that it is clear that the consentus is that peoplo ure pood caugh up to the age of 65 and should not be compalsarily retired at 60 Wo might all ytte that the y limit of 60 xbould be removed. While we shall 2 agred with Mr Harrod that this matter most bo settled in the national interat. I always pospect an upument which darts with that sort of openlos gumbit, and when be goes on to say that in the universities tre pertops teod to consult our own eficiency nather than the national interest I begin to wooder wheto his argument is looding hlm. It is surely 10 outstanding national laterest that the aniversities bould be us eficient u pouble and the best thlog that the untrarutla an do in the national Interest to to preserve the wickedcy If ickedcy is required anywhere in the whole noge of mathooal interest it is purely ·in the untraration, where the minds of the leadans at the nation uro botng formed and whero tho babits of work and the wbolo culturo of the nation uo ut make. I do roghart therefore, that this matter brugt be looked at from the point at view of what is in the boterets of the effidency at the Udrvenuta I feel also that Mr Harrods argument about tho oppar tunities for the young mu msound. It is not a quortion of whether there are more ontvandty jobs for the young catrets to go into when starting their career but of what the electi on young men atter thoy have becomo mnivadlty toucheri. To that matter It doa not seem to mo that the Aathala which Mr Harrod quoted and relon at at all. Mr HARO The gatistics would be very similar of hostoad of taking the aro groop 20-24 wo took tho age group 40-44 wben profumably people aro looldng for chairs. The amo foncrease of opportunity is manifort LORD CHORLEY. I should have thought it stood to reason that their promotions were in fact baing defcared for two your at a timo whilch i very critical for them from almost cvery palnt of view I do not ay that we have not to put up with that, but it does adrenaly alect the younger man that he should have to wait for that additional timo baloro becoming head d department or gottlog a cutr with all to opportunity which that opens up to him, and when fran the purcly canonuk polat a view fropard to the education of his children tod to on, bo neoda tho to.cronont. It sooms to mo that thon0 are very relevant factors indeed from the point of view of the eficacy of univeredity work. I come back to the fact that it is tho aliciency and cloc trvenons of ufverdty work which is the prime consideration In this matter It seems to me that muident dat have not been provided to caablo us to Ay that the upo llmft aan bo extended to 67 without there being paro danger a laseparablo harm betog dogo to rat in the universitar DY C. B. CHILDS (Edinburgh) There seems to be much doubt in many persons minds about the alloct of nailog the mauorum returfing up to 67 Lord Chorley_remarted that we have do data to wat upon. Processor Baker wald that Wo hayo no la data on tho acidency of taching of cos and reared to * Mosty tools I would ut bio whether be seriously current that the electory of the Scottish uover sities b markedly foferior to that of the Eoplita untreruhias, com or bu beam so over the last Afty yao! And I sobrh that Me already have the rivet det ·Appointments to Scottish chairs used to bo ad vtram when PS.S.U was introduced a maximum retirmg age for protations was fixed in three Scottash univtrates this is 70, In tho fourth, 05 with provision for attention by 200val lavita tion up to 70 (My data esclude diolaal and special use.) At Aberdeen al members of tho teaching staff normally ACTVO unul 7 At St Andrews tod Edmburgh professor euro at 70, noo professorul staff at 5 with prozoon for readers to continuo by anoul invitation op to 70. At Glasgow the normal retirint ite is 63 with possible crtension to 70 for professor Dasp to this I am more that we cannot voriously impagn the officiency of tho majority of univerzty departments in Scotland and if we can qoototho odd case of impaired efficiency I think that we an find preasely parallel caso ha England and Wales despite their lower reting ago of 65 It has been all that to make the rettring age would methodly affect promotion. I have 32 years experience in Scotland of university teaching and participation in staff Affairs and have also opialons from teachers entedating my perlod of rivice. So far I can accartun, no complaint havo over been volced by younger members of the state of promotion beag blocked because of the higher malmum retiring ages widely prevailing in Scotland I surgese thereford that to bave very definito data which confute statements that an increase m normal maximum rctirlag uce above 6S must lmpair alliciency and opportunities for promotion I am quito in Lccord with Mr Harrod I feel that the umo has come to review the position and that tbo maxlmom retirlog 4 should be raised at least to 67 DT WM SHEPHERD (Bristol) We have heard a lot about this problem from the point of view of the national Interest, the interest at the Universities, and tho mterest of members of the profesyon up to the time that they retire, bot wo buvo Dot heard much about their interests after they retire. Wo belone, pro bope, to the class of people who are godog to be useful throughout their lives, or very nearly so It seems to mo that the problem is this at what are is it mod eficient in the procru intarest that we should change our form of ustulnau? Retirement is a very important step to a mans life, and to copo with it successfully requires a certain amount of adapia bility Is it not better that this chango should be made betoro this adaptabirty mana? I think that adaptability is the characteristic which is most likely to moc Is It not better to make the chango u 65 am, wben a man has puificent ·95 dapability to assume the occupations tod habits most likely to lad to a happy and meal old ago? Professor A. J BOwn (Leedu) Since Mr Hanod and I may be im not on the coly two economists in this room, I feel that it is ap to to maintain the reputation at the procession by dbagroelog I am povertully greogthened in my determination to do so by the fact that I do todeed degree with him. One pount which seems to mo to bo ammenso importance in afecta quantitative ane. Mr Harrod nehty talls w that the proportion of people over 65 in the popalation has Increased from 5 per cent to 10 per cent, and will go on thercasing. so far as we aan faresco, to 15 per cent. It bol courto, also true, though it may be irrelevant so far as the future is concomod, that this increas has been very much more than alsot by the decease to the qumber of people under 15 to that the proportion of poople to the active 250 troop has increased from 60 per cent fifty or sixty years ago to 70 per cent today So bar u tho tuturos concerned, when wo look, u ho has donc, at the report of the Royal Commission on Popula tion, we mo that, taking the most pessimbti (in this respoct) estimates, thero may be a fallmg back of the activo proportion of the population by about 5 per cent within bo pont so year, that is to ry about hal-may bect to where it mus Ln Victorian times What does that mean? It means, I ruppose, to itsel and by Itsell that the output per head of tho wholo population will fall by something to 8 per cent. (or let us ay between Saod 10 per cent to pive t marm for stor) or 1 penod of 50 year. That, of course, u pot really very mod i do not myuell see the us a mational abu when vowed paint the background of a tedy increase of productivity which may I rapport, bo anything between 1 and 3 per tot per RDDUM It has been a least 1 per cent in the past, and it will bo 3 per cent I we manage to equal the ato of progress in the USA It seems to me that what matters much more than this fall of 5 or 10 per ceat in 50 ytan whether the rise in output per head is 1 a 3 per cent per mu to the part 50 years and let us make oo mbtake about it that depends on the effidency of the uplyersities to un atent which is poing to become ever gate As we move forward into sciou od technologlal mes, that become more uod mort Important Mr Harrod made fomo concestions to this point to bb remarks about the peace sobe Pastups It be because the university from bich I couse is herpely i wciention and tech ·Dological oro that mo tuned down by a very large majority A proposal to niso the rothring ago when we debated it to the renntLast year I cannot myself speak for the natural sciences, but I find grat ondeo.co lo my own object that a nising a tho retiro meat apo might bar a qulto appreciable effect on the clemency of the universities. There bus, of cours beso a very grant change to economia in the last twenty to thirty year, Lo whilch Mr Harrod homself has played in extremely distinguished part I wooder whether ho has had the amo oxperlonce that I have had in bemg amazed and shocked at the slowness with which that change has penetrated into schools o copomla in good may miversities? I do not know how toportant the aiciency of economist b to tho antional ocooomy but I un puro that the cliency of a great many people on the science and technological adoles of great Importanco to it, and, to view of the orders of magnitudo of tho quandoa mvolrod, It seems to me ikely that a nising of the rotiring are in tho tmsverulties will damage output per bad in this country rather than benofit it Mr A YOUMO (A prodation of University Trachero) Tbo prospect which facet mob nther maro drustk than it is for most of you because I am faced with the problem a retiring In the year 1984 It seems to me that somethlog has to be done about this, and therefore I feel that I havo to support the caso put by Mr Harrod Horrever having come to tho uoversity profession after rebelling from the actuarial profosalon, I feel that we must keep statusties out of this. I must confess, after my actuarial inining, that I regard the todico quoted by Mr Harrod as weless for his purpose. He has not really compued comparable things I should liko to my that the retning up of 65 ks fixed because we are in & fruit jacket of the actuartal Yluation of pensions, and for that purpose it is nocerary to have some mystic returing ye. I do not know why it was fixed at 65 Rod thicrob no reason on anth why It should not have beco 63 ar 67 I do not know that any physiolog let aan ay that a man of 63 is necessarily better physiologlally than i man of 67 be bu fudge individuali on ndividual phylologlaal stato at any particular ago The point made by Professor Baker about departments belog ruined by beads being rotuned too long to perfectly correct, but I know departments whilch have been rubod by heads who were considerably under the 4 of 65 and o bould have been retired yean before. The system soms to mo to be quite roog. It is based on a statkocal concept applied to fodfvidork, wberous to fodirktoals one out apply lodi- ·97 vdual concepts, and a ma swoulde ridged for fewenant Lecturdhs to be abuty 16mm that the two taders who fosptred mo most tro toth due for compulsory returomont, 000 next year and 000 thn, though both of thein uro in the ful Dood of the research energie, publishing papers of internationally recognised valu. They will be compulsory retired whereas other profesori md lecturers who bare not published anything for years post will conunue to hlbertato toul they reach the uns 65 I would say therefore, that onc ought to judge these thip on the basis of whether the man is worth retaining and on that alone, not on the statistical concept of He to now 65 ret nd of him. Mr HARCO Mr Yomy old that my figures were not companable, but did not vouchato any aplanation Could be ay anything further on that? Mr YOUNG If you take the total population d people bam in 1935-39 and compare them with the toul popolatfon born to 1885-89 you are compare two diferent groups of people. You will not pot en ladox of populations a unireruty peoplo Belore the war 07 per cent à all chilldren became univerzity student, and now the guro is 17 This must Vect tho index to that ono must consider what proportion of tho population one should includo ta tho alculation of tho Induz at different times. It is not includlog in statistics a univerzity population all the laboutons of the country becaure they har pothing to do with the unheutlet Ono pourt got what the actuary would call a homogeneous popu lation It Do 10 taking tho toto population u ove s Amplo Professor R. E. PEELS (Birgting lam) I apologio for yaking a third time in this conference. The point white I mat to mabots to line with what Mr Yomg hu Hurt tuld It seems to me that the discordion to tar has been over concerned with areas, wbien oreryone who I Concorded with techtory statistia tront that students must be ned galost the mhbate of viewing verything that happens egalost the average. I reinforce that to them by telling the story of tho family with four children who did not wet pocker because they had read that every fifth chid bora u Chines I in more that we all on that the detace between the ability and the faculties of Roy our professor or lecturer at the peo of 65 and 67 by less than the difference between any two members of the opfvenity statut the my end ·98 therefore it b clear that wbothar the retiring age is 65 or 67 or toy other ago it will man the returtment of number of people who would be very usefol, and more useful than ibofr noctestors, while largo putober of peoplo will ako stay on whom It would be better to replace by younger men. When we are comparing the two cases, therefore, we should compare not what is the difference between the two wo whilch is quito trrelevant, but rather how to want to com promise between the numbers of people of cither kind I would therdore pland, u Mr Young has done, for flour billty Keep the retiring 150 at 65 f you like but make it pontblo, and Indcod aasy for the right man to bo asked to continue It may bo uid that this would be very embarrassing. Some people in the ontreshy would have to discuss tho mart of thetr colleagues or Hair. The university is not run however for the convenience and perco of mind of its administrator. We have to face awkward decisons, Wo hayo to do so when we appomt incw professor or member of the Hall That is also very difficult and embarrassing, particu larly wbon, u to allon happens, one of the applicants is a colleaguo whom we know very well and wbose merits wo have to compare with those of others. We do not say on these occasion, "Let us make tho job cury by giving tho post to the oldest man, or to the 000 who has published the most paper," or in accordance with any other formula which would get us out of the difficulty of making decision I rubmit that the problem of dealing with retirement la tho Amo, und sbould and could bo hundled In tho sme way When we are coocemod with tho posublo rcurement of a profesor-or any other member of the staff but it is probably more onbestuung in the case of professor-tet us us tho machinery which in any case needed for his replacement, an clectoral board or whatever It may be. Let those people consult ctperts to other places and po through whatever is the normal procedure, consider tho itato of the department, tho record of the particular person concerned, the anallable dold outside and the existence of younger peoplo who could malo much better contribution They should then dealdo wbother It lo right for the prescat member of the galt to continuo or wbether by appolotmaat should be mado. It may be that cannot rely on our electon! boards to ut wisely but to that case their new appointments will be bed, that it does not rally natter what the rula uro. Mo W D Bowe (Autreia Naind Unterdry) I do Dox apologise for penting several times but for speaking coct, us an laterloper in the cooference from an overmou cotraxity I bare listened with a pet dal oployment and ·99 adrutape to what has been aid but may I bave the tematy to return for t moment to the yered question of statistics? I think that Mr Hartod a wrong in discussing the storms are on tho ban outoaal oictac bocaune by sad barpo the untvendtles, to the sea economia, uro meiicient arpnisations, and on the base of that argument It does not matter whether the age ba 65 of 674 or 70 I thnk that the assental paw la hits index of opportunity" is that be ks compariot poople, antarting to ooo your of one see group 20-24 only with those who go out at the other cod at 60-64 whereus ho boold also take tato tccount thoro bo dlo between theyges at 24 Add 60 lt bo dalo I agree that bts figure of 60 in 1901 od 64.3 to 1921 would be very much bigbot und might even bo over 100 because at the mortality nates of those persoas a considerablo Dumber of people would have died between the go of 24 and 60 I mako ibat point becano I think it is important when considering tho oppor tunities for younger people Processor A. P THOUSON (Birmingham) My only ciuto for intervening in the discussion is that I am qualified by boms rather touched by tono myself, and that I have devoted KOD study to the problem to put yean to order to obtain informatoa and give advice on this matter My capeTICDCD may tbcrdoro be of somo naluo. I regard with tho grestent distrust all the tures produced, because they are invariably qualified by the statement | present troods continuo and no 000 kowt bother they will continuo or not. I agree that these stesticul coosidera tions should be dbanksed from the argument. Tbeto ero cortam Lacta, bowever which are clar ind stand out and 10 compon knowledge Ageing in the human bolas varias CD Ormously trox mdividual to mdrvidual Wo have not the slightest knowledge at the present time of whetber that variation is doo to groeth indience, though It is probablo that that plays a large part, and it is certain that there uro factor in tho envirocudent which modify the cipTESKONI to rede. Both factor borse bero established copertincaually In tone of the lower forms of life and possibly influcu.co human being. The fact remains, as mas pointed out caller in the discussion, that there are people of 65 ubo are yhtly moro efficient in every way than some others who are filleen yeon thet fuqior Those are the facts which c have to It w fupported somewhat qilibly that ageing b Loovitable. I am interested in Sir Emost Buttt's story because that o an esample of bow the fortuilou la a man's life may affect his whole career One of the problems which coafroot the ·physicians whether the elog of the lodividual human being Is of itself inevitable or bether it is at Lay rato partly con ditioned by the customary acceptance of a Orte Aandard. There are many people liko Str Emest Barter #bo wero retired, and then werd controated with tho Mar Tho Dead to meet u dew situation may havo helped them to maintain that won hint youth which the adminton ot us all, because they at once found ouchrag else to do and had not time to contemplato the sagt. If you want a broader illustration of that, those of you who are old enough will be ablo to recall the poation of women in this country duty or over forty yan 40, when it me the sccepted view that It was almost mdeceat for women of good rank in society to be actio I Lay my uſter the age of 45 Coatrust that with the position today! There has been no poyntological chaoga, but merely a change in the conventionally accepted Aandard. I agree that the retiring ago has been fixed by tho actuaria, they were the peoplo bo tflicted it ou u and that is why it has been commonly accepted, for the con vankent practice of tornance. I want to face, however one serious practical dlficulty in administration. I agree that the man who stay beyond bb timo affects tho efficiency of the university or of any other organisation, but I am quito prepared to my after long experience, that I am sure that the enclency of both ontver sities and other organlations has fullared because roen have retired at 65 whien they wero well able to go on, and maths factory robsutut could not be found. What can be done? Professor Peterle, with a dollghtful fonococo of huma nature as it really b, hos migrested that thus on matter of retirement should be committed to electoral boards, and bo drew an analogy between deciding wbother colleaguo should retire and selecting & Dcw candidato for char To speak bluody there is no analogy at 111, because when it b a question of a man rettring you aro inviting to a la judgmeat those wbo are that man colleagues, who bare known him perhaps for 20 yours, and that is an bhfinitely moro diüicalt matter than the selection of somebody from number of peoplo do ono of whom may bo koown to those wo make the selection. It is this sentimental and quito proper human attachment of gal to its older membens (unless they happen to bo particularly diageblo) whilch creates the major dificulty In coofroated with this problem by a very largo Indus trual concern that brought it to me and I will tell you tho potuton that we wanted out. I have applied it to other directions and I think there something to bo al for it. Lot admit that the selection ultimately has to be by the ·101 mo colleagues. How to wo to get them to judge disput Romtedy wod not to be myed by mart 1doction and recommand un extenson in crary aso? I advised the peoplo who came to no about it that they should make op them minds roughly what proportion they would harp liked to keep over tho years, of the men dong the typo o pork lo question in the caso it lay between 10 a 15 per ceata and I puppested that they thould ite a directive that any autension of the retirement ap should be settled by the mos colleagues, with the certain novledge that not more than 10 per cent of the whole of the people employed would be retained. Everybody in a volverulty is a laronted to lus aiciency and 1 you apply a dguro like that and you know the retirme Dek chut ls conlag an, you are much more likely to got a kentou despagionato judgment and the proper refusal of the man who is used and inedfective, because you know that very soon thoro mn be another man whom you all want to retain With a block ilguro of that kind, whilch was applied satisfactorily in an industry of particular typo teto must bo some fizibility Ln universities there might well boa vurlaton between the faculties, and in arts you might have borger proportion I personally deploro tbo decision of tho older univernties to make a penerul extension to 67 We ought to recognise that human biology of fomo importance even in the older universities, and tboy thould bayo exercbad como discretion My endeavour has been to suggest that there tro practical means of extending the worlog years of certain Individuals, and I It is done on & relatively small taulo ft con bo regarded us an experimental venture. Lo the scientiac uolverdures there is still some repard for tho cxperimental method. What did terrify me was the forestion that not your wbed I retiro I might be committed to i poychologbt. I maid what I thought of the economists and thetr figure, but, bellevo mxe, lo these matters the psychologists are equally workot and not caly that but postively more dangerous. They have momo statistics, but I should have thought that this business of the intelligenco quotient and all that sort of silly arithmeti had been blona ty-bilh by the experienco to Korea. Professor i E. BULLIN (Sydney) I have had esperience to three antipodean universities, and that ceperionce lads me to comment on the Poppenthou o xeral speakers that the retirmos e should vary in todhidma) ana I baro been lo 006 uplyanity #boro that has been the rule und tho practial edect. In my optolon, has been extremely bad. The problem res # to who is the right me to co ·thave after 65 Add to my obscurtoo it an lead to lobbylag ind to thring for boministrative power Althoogh an aller speaker has stated that adminstrativo porter abould pot bo important imong profesor, my aperience is that it very often is. Accordingly I think that a formula ti to be preferred in determining the retiring age. Admittedly thero uro objection to a rigid formula, but there is the overwhelm ing advantage of impersonality and at lavlag do wounded foeling. It may be that in the United Kingdom you can diso to higher levels of academic conduct than wo ac, and I put the comment forward simply u one soction of expert aico from a very young part of the wodd. On the major question of whether the retidog ago would bo 65 or 67 I prefer to listen. Professor N FEATHER (Edinburgh) At this late stage of our documion this afternoon I have nothing to add to what has been aald on the general topsc of tho retiring 480 of unverulty touchers, but u one or two personal raterace baro already cropt into our discussion this afternoon I thought that I should like to pay a tabute to the memory of Georgo Frodeock Charlos Soade, who diod last Thursday at the age of 90 Those of us who knopy Cambrdge physics will know tho disappomtment with which Searlo at the age of 80 or moro found that his tachmg days word Over Only a weak OT to ago I had a letter from him in a vary filom hand it might have been written by a mun of 60 Ho dled two weeks attor hos ninetieth birthday Posibly if that birthday bad not been celebratod u it was ho would pull bo bolag forward to the celobration of his centenary Mr AR WHITE (Hull My only qualification to addros you on this mbject to that I un probably further from 65 or 67 than anyone else in this hell. The very fact that I am representativo of the younger pancratica probably profudico my, caso heto immediately because you will quickly co bow lectolog I am in the abilities which alder mon fixo Mr Harrod and Professor Dakar have. Novertheless, I want to Ay komething about what I think is the young man also against antiquity. My tomorto no personal I baro not gathered any statistics from amongst the younger generation Odo important point, I thlak, is that although a undoubtodly difcr amongst people at 65 and 67 1 you do allow 67 os retiring 10 it will loetltably happen that 67 will bo to normal rethimg 483 beaux at the dificulty a choosing amonga cor colleagues. Those who have apart coco a un rezulty ruta m giving emeritus titles to profoon ·103 will probably toow the dificulty there is a relustog the tito to colatuo. I think the main cause against intiquity so to spaat, that there is a tendency for conservato adminstration, and conservatism in university administration not necesarily pood, my moro then it is for politie I think that, in spite of what Mr Harrod has mald univerzity administration to important. In allocatios funds bero and there, to poving ab batal leave, in ntroductog Dew typar a facilities for the wall, mod o forth, administnation is important, tod, it it to in the hands of old mcı only It does tend, I think, to becomo conservative Mr Harrod old that slowness mcquiring Dew blens, whkh bo ms willing to admit might be important lo schenco, was not important la tho its laculty A pročencor of economics bas already told us that it is important in economics, and I would like to my that in my subject, polosophy it la tremendously important. And philosophy o geneally taken us an arts mbject. In the last thaty yan, there bas been something liko revolution in philosophy but I thlok it is true to ay that very few of the philosophers to these meads d anywhere near the age of 5 hare show any sympathy with tho new phlosophy of Indeed, ty meat evidenced over having read very much of it That might be quoted by th, of courte un indicatron of the wisdom, but I think that is at least debatabla. In my opinion, the facts com to show that in philosophy there is a didndication on the part of old people to do the extra wort that is not ry to keep up with tho articles in periodiak, etc. and that tbaro ba as much programs in philosophy and, I hops, on other arts subjects a thero skaico. Referenco has been made to the position in Scotland. I wm mysell an undermduato in Dublin were there wus no rotir log ago and wen I was there somebody worked out the Hathula of the bound, which corresponds to the serce, with tho reruit that the iterpo 40 was found to be nearer 85 than 65 Receot ruvolutionary changes in that unfversity havo shown that many people thought that that was a good daal too old I think that another tendency (I mo pattins fonand the thing that weigh with the young people, whether they are troo or Dod) is for older people in locturtos, and to other thlopt to pontificato instead of arguing and the, certainly in pb Bosophy and I think in many other subject is dangerous I notice that I myself an beplantos to postitate, although I um Dot all. Again, wtatover the statistics may be, I think there to do dearth able young men to enter i miverdty arter at the ·bottom end of the weak, to Laything about the ageing popu Laboa dos not affect the possibility that there may not be enough of us. Moreover I think that, whatever the patistia show about the increased opportunities that wo shall have la 1971 as compared with 1901 #0 should aspimo (I think this would bo a troiam of economia) that should have a greater opportunity iſ the retiring 450 ms 65 than wo should have if the reurmg ago mus 67 But I think the point about the lack of opportunity for younger man the retiring 150 wu rased to 67 is not Indeed, from our polot of view : very strong one. It is lightly doubloedged, in tho sense that thoogh you havo to mift two year longer to get your appolat medt, you will perombly bo able to hold it two yean longer Thordloro I do not think this polat bus important as como younger men merest. The only positivo proposals I have to make aro that the older med should be employed refully and that there should bo usctul comployments for them outside the holding of the professorial appointments which they already have. For instanco those who aro Interested in research an, certamly to arts objects, contour their research without holding a pro ferrocal appointment, and many who aro interested to research do so. Also I think that those who are very good teachers might continue their teaching. There would probably havo to bo an annagement for them to teach at other polvor stres, as it would be a littlo awkward I they continued to teach at their own university but there could be a system of exchango far them between Yerlous universities Professor D M MACKINNON (Aberdeen) I am running the rok of pontificating and even pootmaatlog od hominem bat I think that, to fairness to the object of polosopby ono remark of the last saker should be corrected, that is that profesors of philosophy who are dearmg tho retiring 18 iro Indifferent to tho revolution of the last thirty year. I should have thought that Professor Broad of Cumbindoo who recently retired mus Dot o indifferent, and Profesor Price to wbom I mysel owo great deal and who is no looser Dowcomer to philosophy has made his own signal contribation to the revolution at the lost thirty yaan. Thero is ano other name that I would like to mention, and that b name which I think aans something to Mr Harrod u wall u to mye H. W B Josept. Mr Joseph tarpbt me logic after ho had retired, which bo s over 67 Those of you who loow that formaldablo ma will understand mo when I ay that his fentenen und relentleme had not abated at all. He wu alo cuman at the doction com ·105 mittee of the city of Oxford, and I remember that ono morpho, after ho had criticised my way for a hour and a hall, ha uked me where I us to bo found at 1215 by which time bo would have returned from a meeting of tho education committee and be ready to fiohh dealing with tho many mistaka wloch I had made. Mr Joseph wu deeply antial of those who in his day were tho fortCTS ind cxponents at the revolution which the last speaker mentioned but bo spent years t trying to master their arguments. Further at the very end of his life and in the actual yar af he retirement be delivered in Orford a court of locture o modern loglal das, which I hopo may one day be published. It seems to me to be a lasting contribution to their dhacunzion and it shows that at 65 a man, though be may harooss of his own, is not just an old fosty who reads nothing Professor E. MWRICHT (Aberdeen) My university mu mentioned us the one whilch has a uniform retiring go of 70 The only cIcopdon to that are the teaching star of certain clinical departments We have not found that this later retinng e produces any dibculties. Our older codemque do not hancveru Mr Harod porest they might take over a sabstanwal sharo at udninbtration Pabaps tho wisdom a aso coovinces ibero that administration is a pood thing to leave to other. But they contouo to pronde valmblo teaching and their mfuoco teods to restrain the sometimes excessive cuthugasm of younger tachers, which leads to the problema no vero con sidenng this moming Odo can always rely on the older and more experienced man to see the studeat point of view and to urco reasonable restraint in the scope and depred of specialitation of syllabuscs. I feel strongly that older profemors and lecturers contribute an clement of balance and experience which is extremely valuable. It k perhaps true boncret that anyone who an PuVIVO into his the the climate of the north east coast of Scotland must havo e depree of cty vigour and robusmes dy to render him fally apable of useful fort und be a 70 A point made from the floor darmot De Child's contrt butod has that the Scottish uchetsltle nere less chical perba pe 11 a result of their hater retiring ist. It Boot easy to magro the clictency of unhauty But I have at through yesterday's and the mornings discussion, beano advanced as diicult and remolatime mes tres hich to uready cry OUL SO perhaps we are Do noticeably len progicsure because it retain a few honoured colleagte mi the roof 70 ·100 Profesor J F BAKE, in replying to the documlan, ald I feel there is very littlo I an say in reply Tho only difficulty I have felt wus ained by Dr Childs I know what to apart from him I way that I had forpotten Scotland, and I think my dlaciculty would be only slightly less if I wld that I had conndered Scotland and had drawn my own conclusons Bat Professor Wright hus provided the solubon--t is the domate! I am dnwn, of cours, to the suggestions made by Mr Young and Processor Peieris, and that mado by Profesor Thomson to his delighttul contribution, that i controlled experiment dould bo curiod out, u least by some univer doa As for alliciency the most comfortable attitude to adopt is that a ono of my datinguished predecessors, wbo, attor Loung round the laboratory a few years ago and be thought that to a universty thero mu agat deal to be ud for a bit of ineficiency Mr H. R. F HARROD in roplying to the discusion, ald After the baodying about of names that wo havo had on the philosophlaal alde, I cannot refrain from mentioning the lato Professor Alfred North Whitehead, wbo wu paruly respon blo for the revolution in pullosophy durmg to last thirty year, about which we have heard. Ho retired from the Univeraty of London at tho ordonary retirlog ago. He then went to Harvard, which, being more enterproog altered him 1 chair and ho became Professor of Philosophy at Harvard wbero bo wroto half his boobs rather good complo at continued fertility after the age of 65 There are one or two misconceptioos that I should Iko to clear up Profesor Bater aid that we must not damago efficiency that we must not face incon yelenco to keep peoplo happily aopłoyod. I am not thinking prlmurly of tho happiness of old people whica I say that we should be willing to fuco toconvedronce I wm thinking primarily of tho apo distribution of tho population ut whoło, that is to say the audional question feel that also with regard to Dr Shepherd. remarks about adaptability There somethtog to bo rald for setting a change over at 65 and not 67 Somo people would be happrer trying to adapt themselves to somotolog dhoreot ut 65 wbereas other would rather go on with their ordhory work until the upo 67 I think that these coo ndertions mod not weigh much by comparison with the problem of the agong of the popolation I think that Mr Youngs cifion wu just I us framog a purdy ubstrat idea of the university us being a microcosm ·107 of the country as a whole und growing in the Roc relation as the country a whole. Actually tho dumber of chain that becono avrdablo from time to time by the onlytratia depends a the nate o powth of the mirantla themselves, and 000 would have to go oto the whole past bktory of the univer ditles and their futuro capansion. On tho wholo it came to Do that in the deit two decade there will be periods of grat espandor of the unlveratat, und therefore great Opportunity for the young peoplo My alermo in statistics referred to the nation wi bolo I am open to the antiem that I may have seemed to assume that the unlventy mas mkrocotom of the nation I whole and reflected its apo composition us wbolo I am also fubject to correction from Mr Botno of Australha for having omitted deaths prior to 65 To reckon this would have been a laborious undertaking which, although it would slightly modify my picture, would not. I think modify tho mam posillon, certainly not onco 1921 I do feel that this general statistical picture may be useful Lord Chorley used the wordspectou OTICO or twice in relaten.co to what I ald, but he himself seemed to be labour ing under the most profound mapprehensions with regard to the wholo topic. The man cause of our datloml dilemma, No to speak, is not that people are living longer though that does increase the namba d peoplo above the age of 65 The main aux of the chaopo to proportion has been the preat progresvo fall in tho birth-nuto. That is tho essential cause IL 18, to speak, the lack of children, e point which was brought out by Prolessor Brown ma romcw bat dlllerent argument. It us to paucity of children whoich makes tho opportunity for the young good thero are so fow of them. That is the point which people must bear in mind Again I believe Lord Chorley really think that if tho rethin 40 ks rated by two year, trom 65 to 67 everybody from now on will come into the jobs two years later but that is totally follacious. It be once-over change. If you atnapointe over the port ten or twenty yen you will sco that people are going to get more or fener jobs-y chairs -at iho ar ol 44 dependong cotirely on the rate of expansion of the univeratles the antecedent period and the followtot period. The idea that everyone will be postpooed for two yaan by this change is quite absurd. I apologise for thog that proog word. I have been spending too much time on these fattual quentions, but I am sobat to correction by Mr Young, and I baro woted to emphasise that I rus trylog to glve tho optional statistical demonplaal backgroun coinn allt we ought to be working ·HIV INDEX OF SPEAKERS Baker J F., 88, 106. Buy R, 36 Ekurham, Mis J., 73 Bock, WD, 9 Brown, A. J 95 Balen, KE 101 Burckhardt, ON 60 MacKinnon, DM. 71 104 Massey HS Y 52, 76 Morris, Sir Charla, 15 28. 34 45 103. Nemuk, F H 64 Niklaus R 47 52 58 70 73 76, 78 109 Child, C. B. 42, 93 Chorley Rt Hon. Lord 92, 93 Christensen, A N. 70 Peacock, D H., 59 Peserta RE22, 44 66, 97 Pickering, OW. 72 Dunton, F S 67 Dunsheath P., 39 Reld, L. A 63 Robinson, HR 81 87 91 108. Edwards, B. A 74 Father N 62, 102 Shepherd WM 24 Skinner H. W B. 43 Smart, WM 28. Syta KV 73 Harrod, H. RF 81 93 97 106 Heilbronn, H. A 38. Thomson, A. P 99 Juma, EJ F 16, 34 Whate, AR 102 Jeffery GB. 34 69 Wibon CL 42, Janar, B., 31 35 Wolfenden J F 48, 75 Wright, E M 105 Young A 96 97 ·For subjects and speakers at prerious conferenco sce overleaf

·OPLOVO-111
im 2. Slagh Medial Cilego Librir JumL
DATE LOANED
The book may be kept for
hitra un
A few of toor u will be shared for at
day the book to brpt outler
Selection of Students for Open Scholarships Lod
Awards from Public Funds (Sir Philip Morris).
1949
Sir Waltar Mobedy's book, * Tbo Colabs to the Univer
sity (Str Water Moberly Professor LJ Rurrell)
Continued on opposite pare

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